Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: DocBeech on January 28, 2011, 10:14:45 PM
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I am at work so I cant post photos right now. But I am looking at a couple of ideas and I don't know which is better.
If you look at my car photos now it has a rear trunk spoiler. I believe that one is rated to about 160mph but creates less downforce than the APR GT 300 Wing - http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=44
They also have this drag wing which says 125 + with no limit - http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=44
but I have also found this - http://www.200mphplus.com/index.php/products/wing/
Really what I need is a wing that is good from about 65mph to 200mph (my target and final goal of breaking) What I don't know is which one is the better choice unless you guys know someone that can custom make a wing that suits my needs?
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Why do you think you need a wing or spoiler?
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I know I need one because of the track time I have spent. At 135 mph my car gets a little loose. On the track It helps a lot when I am at the 60mph mark in turns. But I know after 135 that my vehicle needs the down force because last time in the 135 - 170 range when I had nothing at all on the car it was not nearly as smooth to drive as after I put the rear spoiler on, and I didn't get near the traction I do with it.
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Ok :-D
You might want to do a bit of research on weight vs. drag at the salt...........
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would weight and end plates be more efficient
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wow, tough crowd!
Sparky has good suggestion - for LSR there are other ways to get some traction. Read more.
Hope to see you out there!
signed,
another mazda guy
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What track are you putting your time in at?
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I used to run at fontana but that was in a 427 mustang, I would do the cali, nevada, arizona thing. While I was in the military.
Addison Airport, Texas Motor Speedway very occasionally lets us on, AutoX at Fair Park, Austin Raceway Park, Rattlesnake Raceway, Racers Ranch are a couple of places I have gotten to run. I have hit a track in Oklahoma once, and Ive been to Louisiana twice.
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What is your car? And class? I don't have rule book handy but thought wings were specifically prohibited unless available from MFG. If am wrong, please ignore this post. :|
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they are available through the MFG. There are three types of wings my car had the option of. One was the GT wing, one was the Trunk Lip Spoiler, and one was the MazdaSpeed Wing.
GT Wing: (http://images-2.drive.com.au/2010/08/05/1750082/RX-8-GT-49_m_m-600x400.jpg)
Lip Spoiler: (http://autogigolo.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/mazda_rx8_gt-rear.jpg)
MazdaSpeed Option: (http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2877/3281/7191640001_large.jpg)
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When you say you get loose, do you mean you are losing traction in a straight or in the turns? Not sure if you are racing for top speed or on a track?
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my vehicle is loose at higher speeds. below 90 I really can get away with nothing, but I start to feel a real safety need for downforce after 135, now I have yet to get to run just a straight course no turns, nothing.
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Sounds like your car isn't set up very well. How much Hp are you putting down?
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You need to be careful not to assume any part available from an OEM dealer will automatically be accepted by SCTA. Body kits and swoopy IMSA panels, even though they have an OEM part number, are usually not allowed . . . even with 500 unit production and homogulation. A Classic example (pun intended) is the 75-80 Chevy Monza. Chevy wanted to make a presence in road racing so they subcontracted development of a complete body kit converting the car into a Mirage. All parts available from a dealer with a GM part number and SCCA approval. While approved by other organizations they are disallowed by SCTA.
If you want to stay in Production or Gas class make sure the wing is approved ahead of time. The links you provided above would disqualify the car in those two classes.
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Remember, you will fly when going backwards.
Before and After:
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Sounds like your car isn't set up very well. How much Hp are you putting down?
Sedans and coupes get light at speed [especially if they are kept as light as posible for roadracing] and
the lightness shows up fast when trying to corner.
This was proven by Jim Hall and Chaparral racing at the track I was jokingly going to ask if he ran there,
RATTELSNAKE raceway, and the spoiler was shown to solve the problem. Not only high speed stabilization but more downforce led to faster cornering. And then they developed the variable spoiler, up for corners and down for straights. Maybe will catch up to them someday.
Is this the same Chaparral Rattelsnake track?
JL222
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You need to be careful not to assume any part available from an OEM dealer will automatically be accepted by SCTA. Body kits and swoopy IMSA panels, even though they have an OEM part number, are usually not allowed . . . even with 500 unit production and homogulation. A Classic example (pun intended) is the 75-80 Chevy Monza. Chevy wanted to make a presence in road racing so they subcontracted development of a complete body kit converting the car into a Mirage. All parts available from a dealer with a GM part number and SCCA approval. While approved by other organizations they are disallowed by SCTA.
If you want to stay in Production or Gas class make sure the wing is approved ahead of time. The links you provided above would disqualify the car in those two classes.
It seems unclear to me where it says in the rule book that wings must be a factory wing. What page? Production yea but gas coupe are altered?
Also it doesn't say you can't have a wing and spoiler were spoilers are allowed :evil:
And as DW says about adding spoiler fins show me :-D
JL222
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I did not include Altereds. Only Gas and Production. Page, 66, 5.D.3."Gas coupes may not be altered in height, width, length, or contour. All body pannels (does that mean "wing"?) shall be mounted in the original relationship to each other". The links provided by Doc show wings all exceeding stock dimensions and different contours from stock. Air dams are allowed but not much else. The gas class is fairly strict. I only suggested to check first . . . don't assume.
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The APR was developed with mazdaspeed also known as mazda motor sports. APR builds it Mazda designed it. All three that I showed later on were avialble from dealership. The mazdaspeed wing was altered to the GT 300 APR Contour wing. Through mazda motor sports. I know they sold well over 500 of them. It helps my car a great amount. Improved speed and track times immensely. I can hold corners at 10-15mph faster, and I can get upto speed about 150 yards faster on some tracks. I am putting just a little bit over stock to the ground at 235HP, its a rotary so torque is very low, but at 9800 RPM who cares:P
My setup is rated as 2nd best setup on a car under 100,000 dollars. Its a 50/50 weight ratio, but I do have a problem with the steering. Its too loose at 16.6:1, I am still working on a way to run a 14.6:1. The steering is an electric steering box with a cpu controlling it at different speeds. I have tighter sway bars front and rear, I also have front and rear strut bars. All of which are stock. Mazda designed the rear sway bar to hold the spare tire. It came factory. The front strut bar also came factory under the engine cover. The sway bars are the R3 mazda speed where they changed the spring rates to increase performance. Everything I have is stock factory though. Nothing is aftermarket or not an option that wasnt dealer offered.
Yes thats the rattlesnake raceway you are thinking of.
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Dealer installed wing---I doubt if it will fly :evil:
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So, are you going to run any LSR vinues?
At your hp and speed level "I" would not likely run a wing or spoiler........ in LSR.
If you're not "up to speed" on why do a search. :-)
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Dealer installed wing---I doubt if it will fly
+1
My personal vehicle is a supercharged Toyota Tundra.
Its a TRD supercharger, purchased at Toyota (*I installed it myself) in most cases installed by the dealer and even maintains the factory warranty.
It will, and is documented that it soundly beat a SRT-10 Viper Ram Truck (considered worlds fastest production).
Because it was a dealer option and never sold as a "sticker option" it doesnt count.
I'd be willing to bet that unless you could buy the car with the wing installed BY THE FACTORY, off the showroom floor it will be a no go.
~JH
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I did not include Altereds. Only Gas and Production. Page, 66, 5.D.3."Gas coupes may not be altered in height, width, length, or contour. All body pannels (does that mean "wing"?) shall be mounted in the original relationship to each other". The links provided by Doc show wings all exceeding stock dimensions and different contours from stock. Air dams are allowed but not much else. The gas class is fairly strict. I only suggested to check first . . . don't assume.
Wings pg 45 Last sentence '' for classification purposes,the wing is not considered as part of the body''.
You said ''gas'' not gas coupe. There are several gas classes.
JL222
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Doc,
You should be aware that your experience with running asphalt road tracks is not directly relatable to the salt.
DW
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Wings pg 45 Last sentence '' for classification purposes,the wing is not considered as part of the body''.
You said ''gas'' not gas coupe. There are several gas classes. JL222
See same paragraph and the sentence before your quote . "Wings . . . allowed ONLY on Streamliners, Lakesters, Modified Roadsters and production bodies which had the wing as an option." No mention of any gas class and no permission to have a wing size or shape different than the original. None of the wings Doc linked to meet the intent of this paragraph. All I am saying is get permission first don't be a disappointed "saltcat". :evil: :-D
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Wings pg 45 Last sentence '' for classification purposes,the wing is not considered as part of the body''.
You said ''gas'' not gas coupe. There are several gas classes. JL222
See same paragraph and the sentence before your quote . "Wings . . . allowed ONLY on Streamliners, Lakesters, Modified Roadsters and production bodies which had the wing as an option." No mention of any gas class and no permission to have a wing size or shape different than the original. None of the wings Doc linked to meet the intent of this paragraph. All I am saying is get permission first don't be a disappointed "saltcat". :evil: :-D
Saltfever ...your the one mentioning gas, and it doesn't say anything about must have original type wing. If SCTA has an
intention make it clear, such as [ no other wing type allowed other than factory available]
And as DW said about the spoiler fins, the rules don't say you can't have them.
JL222
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Doc... looks like you have a wing and a spoiler [ cool ] :-D
Probably with your hp the speed will be what [170]? so maybe the stock spoiler is enough. If you already have
a wing bring it just in case.
The trouble with LSR there is not a lot of us doing it with a certain car and hard to compare times as in road racing. I would pick the adjustable wing, if it didn't have to much drag, and take Saltfevers advice about asking
before buying. But maybe I have givin you some ammo :-D
I know SCTA rewrote their spoiler rules after we set a record with the 222 car because the rules didn't say
we couldn't do what we did. I think DW said something about the wing definitions being reworded also?
Good luck JL222
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"... production bodies which had the wing as an option."
How can you interpet this part of sentence to say you can use any wing and not the OEM wing?
DW
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"... production bodies which had the wing as an option."
How can you interpet this part of sentence to say you can use any wing and not the OEM wing?
DW
Because '' wings are not considered part of the body'' and it doesn't say any thing about ''original wings''
JL222
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I have two production wings in my possession. Both of which are options from the factory. So they meet your rule. My initial question was never answered though. Which is better for my speed. Yes the vehicle tops out after about 170. As of yet :P I plan to improve that later on. What I need to know is which one would be better for land speed record setting.
I own both the mazdaspeed, and the rear lip spoiler. Both are functional. I plan on buying the APR GT300 Contour wing which is also designed by mazdaspeed. But no one answered my question on which one serves a better function at high speed. I understand I have no salt practice and that my road racing will be different. A lot of things I do are different. Road racing, to track racing, AutoX, to racers ranch. Some of them you have to deal with dirt on the track, others are perfectly clean. Some of them you end up in less than desirable conditions like mud. But I want to know for top speed which is better. There really aren't any long straight aways on the track. Texas motor speedway I have to use fins to because of the way ovals work. So I can't really test there.
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for top speed---weight not a wing
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I am at work so I cant post photos right now. But I am looking at a couple of ideas and I don't know which is better.
If you look at my car photos now it has a rear trunk spoiler. I believe that one is rated to about 160mph but creates less downforce than the APR GT 300 Wing - http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=44
They also have this drag wing which says 125 + with no limit - http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=44
but I have also found this - http://www.200mphplus.com/index.php/products/wing/
Really what I need is a wing that is good from about 65mph to 200mph (my target and final goal of breaking) What I don't know is which one is the better choice unless you guys know someone that can custom make a wing that suits my needs?
We've tried to help but you're not listening........ :?
Wait for it.............
Wait............
Weight!
For what you want to do any spoiler or wing will add drag along with the downforce you are looking for. If you want to run 200 try to do it without inducing more of what you don't want.
8-)
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Hahahahaha, we gave him the answer for LSR. He's asking about wings, not LSR!
Its human nature to get a little deaf . . . I can't hear anything that doesn't start with "Ford . . ." even though that isn't the right answer.
What's the old prayer? Lord, don't let me get old before I get wise . . .
I just hope I have the sense to consider the source when someone gives me advice!
Respectfully,
too many fords, too old and too stubborn.
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John,
"production cars which had the wing as an option"
Inferes taht the production class car would need a production wing, i.e. as it came from the showroom floor.
Send in a suggestion, www.scta-bni.org
DW
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You will have to run your Mazda to test which wing you want to use. When you run at Texas it will be much more different than at the salt.
DW
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John,
"production cars which had the wing as an option"
Inferes taht the production class car would need a production wing, i.e. as it came from the showroom floor.
Send in a suggestion, www.scta-bni.org
DW
Yea Dan I agree with you as far as running in Production class, but doesn't every class in the rule book [besides special
construction] have to be a production body?
JL222
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John,
The rules are split into the 5 categories with sub classes. There are specific rules written for categories, such as Production Category which apply to all classes in the category.
You read the rules for your category, Modified in your case, then the rules for your class, Altered.
A rule such as the wing specific being discussed referes to Special Construction, Diesl Truck and Production categories.
DW
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Doc- my car makes same power (235 at wheels) at similar RPM (9600), not much low end torque. Though I made two changes in 09, cold air intake added, and took off the factory stock spoiler/wing off got me 6 mph. 2 liter NA engine pushing a 87 Firebird (went 170+). The cold air helped some but I saw a change at Maxton before Bonneville that proved the wing was part of that 6mph. Until you have a traction problem, run without the wing. Any lift or down force it generates causes drag and you will go slower( and if it lifts might go sideways more than you like. When you have power that exceeds traction/aero drag (and therefore have wheel spin) and therefore are likely to spinout; you will go faster without. Adding weight helps the mechanical traction but does cause slight increase in rolling resistance and therefore drag but is much smaller than the aero penalty of wings and things. However, until you go over 175 in the quarter ( the 2.25 mile timing trap) you are still, especially with a small engine car, in a bit of a drag race so acceleration is affected by weight and is therefore also a small penalty. You want gears/power/aero etc to all be pretty much peaked when you pass the 2mile marker so you accelerate very slowly mph or two over the mile. If you are not peaking until later you won't reach your maximum speed. When you get to bigger numbers, wings, spoilers, side plates and weight all may be needed to keep you pointed right way and not overpowering the tires. Weight in the a$$ end of the car is not nice from an aero stability stand point but as long as you keep it pointed right way is fine. There are threads here about this. Lots of opinions. You start somewhere and work up to it. I'd start no wing and see how you do. Might fall in love with salt flat racing and be hooked like all of us here. Might say not your cup of tea and only go once in which case $$$ on spoiler is wasted. Besides you have huge work to do to turn your track car into and LSR car to start with. Sorry to tell you, bet many $$$ your cage is not legal. (it's .093 wall isn't it?)
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John,
The rules are split into the 5 categories with sub classes. There are specific rules written for categories, such as Production Category which apply to all classes in the category.
You read the rules for your category, Modified in your case, then the rules for your class, Altered.
A rule such as the wing specific being discussed referes to Special Construction, Diesl Truck and Production categories.
DW
Dan... The rule book says production bodies [not production category] and I don't see any thing about wings allowed
in altered class. BUT I see plenty of cars with wings in altered.
JL222
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John an OEM wing, if available for the car used, can be transferred to the Altered class. A car that came with no wing cannot used a fabricated wing.
Remember that your log book tells us what body & model you are using.
DW
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Doc- my car makes same power (235 at wheels) at similar RPM (9600), not much low end torque. Though I made two changes in 09, cold air intake added, and took off the factory stock spoiler/wing off got me 6 mph. 2 liter NA engine pushing a 87 Firebird (went 170+). The cold air helped some but I saw a change at Maxton before Bonneville that proved the wing was part of that 6mph. Until you have a traction problem, run without the wing. Any lift or down force it generates causes drag and you will go slower( and if it lifts might go sideways more than you like. When you have power that exceeds traction/aero drag (and therefore have wheel spin) and therefore are likely to spinout; you will go faster without. Adding weight helps the mechanical traction but does cause slight increase in rolling resistance and therefore drag but is much smaller than the aero penalty of wings and things. However, until you go over 175 in the quarter ( the 2.25 mile timing trap) you are still, especially with a small engine car, in a bit of a drag race so acceleration is affected by weight and is therefore also a small penalty. You want gears/power/aero etc to all be pretty much peaked when you pass the 2mile marker so you accelerate very slowly mph or two over the mile. If you are not peaking until later you won't reach your maximum speed. When you get to bigger numbers, wings, spoilers, side plates and weight all may be needed to keep you pointed right way and not overpowering the tires. Weight in the a$$ end of the car is not nice from an aero stability stand point but as long as you keep it pointed right way is fine. There are threads here about this. Lots of opinions. You start somewhere and work up to it. I'd start no wing and see how you do. Might fall in love with salt flat racing and be hooked like all of us here. Might say not your cup of tea and only go once in which case $$$ on spoiler is wasted. Besides you have huge work to do to turn your track car into and LSR car to start with. Sorry to tell you, bet many $$$ your cage is not legal. (it's .093 wall isn't it?)
Doc..pg 24 Roll cages....All deviations to roll structure rules shall be submitted to the contest board 45 days prior to the event
for approval.
If you have engineering specs it helps.
JL222
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6 point 1.750 x .120 DOM steel??
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6 point 1.750 x .120 DOM steel??
Ahhh, looks like I lose my bet and I am glad. Regardless of diameter, needs to be .120 wall (unless you are under 175 AND in the G or lower categories)- this direct from the horse's mouth, Chief Inspector Kiwi Steve Davies. Don't know about faster category NHRA and similar but most road race stuff and rules I have seen are .093 or less. Glad yours is above that. Might still send photos to Steve for opinion in case they want additional bracing etc.
Not sure your displacement, what engine class are you running? (Rotary right?)=Opps, just looked at your rotary engine post so you are running F/GT or MS.
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1.3L penalized out to 2.6L lol. I can deal with that much more than what it was before though. Yes I used an autopower NHRA/SCCA certified cage which is thicker than the SCCA only certified one. I ran into that issue with my mustang some time ago is where I learned my lesson. I had an SCCA cage in the mustang and failed an NHRA inspection from it. I will only ever be burned once on something thats a minimum of a grand to install lol.
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Probably no wing and no spoiler will be fastest. At your power lever, you will probably not have to add any weight. If you do have to add weight, please add to front also. Welcome to the LSR community, the nicest bunch of racers you will ever meet.
As a former road racing enthusiast, be careful of getting hooked on the salt. There is something intriguing about doing stuff that hasn't been done before and the engineering challenge of it all.
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At the 170 speed level you may not need any aero help.
Front/rear balance, cross corner balance, tires of equal circumference, maximum use of your power range. Look to the details. Old racers rule, don't change a lot of things at one time you won't be able to know what is or is not working.
DW
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My dad was an engineer at hendricks and thats actually the way I do it. You change one thing at a time. Currently I am having to rebuild the water pump, due to its wimpy design it failed. Once I finish that I will replace the radiator hoses. So I know all about the one step at a time thing. I am greatful for the reminder though!
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Document everything you do. Even take pictures if necessary. Down the road you will be glad you did. None of us can remember everything or when we did it.Make notes of the results so you know if it worked or not.Most of all have fun.
:cheers: