Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Aerodynamics => Topic started by: 71GSSDemon on April 24, 2024, 09:19:17 PM
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So I was reading in the 2023 rule book. It says in C/GALT you can stretch the front ahead of the firewall a maximum of 2%. So on a car with a 208" overall length, does this mean I can stretch the front end sheet metal 4.16" as long as it doesnt add streamlining? Like a Torino Talladega or Mercury Cyclone Spoiler II cars (yes Mercury went 6" but you get it)? Overall unless making it to impound it shouldn't be too big of a deal. Yes?
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YEAH, 208 +2%=212.16
Thats what we did to the 222 Camaro. Nobody has protests us or checked but we carry paperwork off the internet from looking up car specs.
JL222
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Thank you Sir. I may add 4" to the nose of the car now.
Eric
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Thank you Sir. I may add 4" to the nose of the car now.
Eric
Please read the rule again.
The body stretch must be in the "cowl area in front of the firewall".
I understand that "cowl area" is rather vague but in the spirit of the rule, adding 4" to the "front" of the car would not be acceptable.
Check with Mike LeFevers to make sure.
Cheers.
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Yeah in the cow areal for ALT class. At record certification last Nov a comp coup was disqualified for extension not being in cowl area. Was overturned because extensions in Comp Coup are not limited to cowl area.
JL222
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Yeah in the cow areal for ALT class. At record certification last Nov a comp coup was disqualified for extension not being in cowl area. Was overturned because extensions in Comp Coup are not limited to cowl area.
JL222
Hey Troy.
The vehicle you mention was handed their record at the meet. They were not DQ'd.
And it had nothing to do with body stretch.
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Ok thank you. I read it that way also, "in cowl area in front of firewall". My comment of "nose" was as vague as the rule. I meant in front of the firewall but not necessarily just the limited cowl area.
Now thinking more about it: Not sure what the purpose of adding 4 inches, in my case, in that area. Where does 4.HH (wheelbase) come in for C/GALT? If stretching there, it would increase the wheelbase in order to keep body panel relationship, no? Wouldn't stretching the body at the cowl area increase the overall length of the body? How would it matter if it was added at the cowl or to the nose at that point? Maybe I am best to just run in an Open/timed category, despite never worrying about making it to impound.
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I was under the impression that the percentage of set back was based on wheelbase not over all length.
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That's interesting.
The 4" stretch could mean another inch in engine set-back.
Probably wouldn't make a bit of advantage, but in Impound, once and a while, they make 'em up as they go.
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This rule was placed in the book at a time when NHRA Pro Stock cars were really stock appearing using actual stock steel bodies. As they changed almost yearly many became for sale and the only thing that made them illegal for SCTA rules was the area was 4" longer at the windshield/firewall line and a 4" longer wheel base which was better for stability for the speeds they were attaining especially in Blown Fuel At the time Altereds, technically, were Gas Coupes with headlight covers, grille covers and step pans.
Roy Fjasted provided the information and asked for a rule change and it was voted on by the BOD and became allowable. In this era also there were many front engine cars converted to rear wheel drive used in the NHRA that could easily compete with the SCTA by adding the necessary safety rules and they did..
These changes would not allow a properly built Altered this allowable change using Gasoline back into Gas Coupe
When mentioning engine set bac and a firewall remember that the Altererds, Gas and Fuel coupes, allow a 25% using the wheel base and the first spark plug in calculations.......JD
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It's not printed but they mean 2 percent of the wheelbase.
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Big difference between wheel base and overall length
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I was under the impression that the percentage of set back was based on wheelbase not over all length.
Rule book says body pg 78
JL222
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It's not printed but they mean 2 percent of the wheelbase.
If it's not printed how to you know what they mean?
JL222
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Yeah in the cow areal for ALT class. At record certification last Nov a comp coup was disqualified for extension not being in cowl area. Was overturned because extensions in Comp Coup are not limited to cowl area.
JL222
Hey Troy.
The vehicle you mention was handed their record at the meet. They were not DQ'd.
And it had nothing to do with body stretch.
It's john ....JL222 Troy's dad,
We were in record certification right next to the AutuPower comp coupe and body stretch in wrong area was the discussion about disqualification or so I though.
If not that. What?
JL222
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So I read it as a stretch of the body, not wheelbase, as it specifically says the body in the cowl area in front of the firewall. That said, if wheel base is not changed, then all I can truly assume is a firewall set back for engine swaps. Engine swaps are also mentioned in that section as well as engine set backs. I find it interesting, all the interpretations people come up with as they read it.
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Wheel base is only limited by fender opening , You can not change opening in fender. If you stretch the body Wheel base can be lengthened to put Wheel in fender opening..
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And that makes sense. Thank you. I wont be changing the wheelbase, so fender relationship will remain unchanged and no stretch in the cowl area.
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Yeah in the cow areal for ALT class. At record certification last Nov a comp coup was disqualified for extension not being in cowl area. Was overturned because extensions in Comp Coup are not limited to cowl area.
JL222
Hey Troy.
The vehicle you mention was handed their record at the meet. They were not DQ'd.
And it had nothing to do with body stretch.
It's john ....JL222 Troy's dad,
We were in record certification right next to the AutuPower comp coupe and body stretch in wrong area was the discussion about disqualification or so I though.
If not that. What?
JL222
Sorry for the mix up John.
The discussion had to do with the hood scoop and streamlining.
If you look at page 78 of the 2024 rule book, you'll see the car in question.
The discussion was whether or not they were considering that bodywork as a hood scoop or streamlining.
If they were to consider it a hood scoop, it would have to end at the back of the blower. They decided it was not a hood scoop.
The streamlining of the hood must end at the base of the windshield.
I was going to hold the record pending but knowing how the SCTA works, I decided to award them the record and have them fix it in the off-season.
There was never a DQ.
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Yeah in the cow areal for ALT class. At record certification last Nov a comp coup was disqualified for extension not being in cowl area. Was overturned because extensions in Comp Coup are not limited to cowl area.
JL222
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Hey Troy.
The vehicle you mention was handed their record at the meet. They were not DQ'd.
And it had nothing to do with body stretch.
It's john ....JL222 Troy's dad,
We were in record certification right next to the AutuPower comp coupe and body stretch in wrong area was the discussion about disqualification or so I though.
If not that. What?
JL222
Sorry for the mix up John.
The discussion had to do with the hood scoop and streamlining.
If you look at page 78 of the 2024 rule book, you'll see the car in question.
The discussion was whether or not they were considering that bodywork as a hood scoop or streamlining.
If they were to consider it a hood scoop, it would have to end at the back of the blower. They decided it was not a hood scoop.
The streamlining of the hood must end at the base of the windshield.
I was going to hold the record pending but knowing how the SCTA works, I decided to award them the record and have them fix it in the off-season.
There was never a DQ.
Pg 79 2023 rule book shows #8600 Gas Coupe is that your car?
I'm talking about the AutoPower Comp Coupe and hood scoops were ever they friggin want.
JL222
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How do you get a record and have "to fix it in the off-season"?
I'm cornfused on this whole thing.
And what Class were they running. Altered (by itself) is not a class. I's guess it's a Category -- you know -- Gas? -- Fuel? -- Blown?
What's the record now -- by who?
(And why . . . ?
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Yeah in the cow areal for ALT class. At record certification last Nov a comp coup was disqualified for extension not being in cowl area. Was overturned because extensions in Comp Coup are not limited to cowl area.
JL222
[
Hey Troy.
The vehicle you mention was handed their record at the meet. They were not DQ'd.
And it had nothing to do with body stretch.
It's john ....JL222 Troy's dad,
We were in record certification right next to the AutuPower comp coupe and body stretch in wrong area was the discussion about disqualification or so I though.
If not that. What?
JL222
Sorry for the mix up John.
The discussion had to do with the hood scoop and streamlining.
If you look at page 78 of the 2024 rule book, you'll see the car in question.
The discussion was whether or not they were considering that bodywork as a hood scoop or streamlining.
If they were to consider it a hood scoop, it would have to end at the back of the blower. They decided it was not a hood scoop.
The streamlining of the hood must end at the base of the windshield.
I was going to hold the record pending but knowing how the SCTA works, I decided to award them the record and have them fix it in the off-season.
There was never a DQ.
Pg 79 2023 rule book shows #8600 Gas Coupe is that your car?
I'm talking about the AutoPower Comp Coupe and hood scoops were ever they friggin want.
JL222
No John. I was the Impound Chief and yes, it is the Spirit of Autopower III we're talking about.
They set a record in May that I certified. Then I saw the car again on the cover of the SCTA Racing News and noticed the illegal hood scoop/streamlining. I spoke to the committee head, and he agreed that it was illegal. I should have contacted the competitor about it but for one reason or another, I didn't and when he came to Impound in November, I explained that the hood scoop/streamlining was non-compliant and that I was going to hold the record pending a Board review. I thought about it and knowing how the SCTA Board works I decided to award them the record.
After all, they gave another competitor his record, their points and all that goes with it after going out of bounds at an El Mirage Meet. I knew how the wheels would turn and made my bed. Full disclosure. I'm not sure if this was the reason I was bounced or not, but it may have had something to do with it. I was the Impound chief for 7 years and yes, I made my share of mistakes but always tried to do what was right and never let my personal feelings about a racer or team influence my decisions unlike my predecessor.
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Yeah MRK after seeing a picture of auto Power car and reading the rule book I can see your point
The wording needs to be changed because why should a Gas Coupe be allowed more streamling than
a Comp Coup as far as hood scoops.
Auto power put small hole in front as extra air intake :-P
MRK thanks for 11 years of service :cheers:
jl222
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Yeah MRK after seeing a picture of auto Power car and reading the rule book I can see your point
The wording needs to be changed because why should a Gas Coupe be allowed more streamling than
a Comp Coup as far as hood scoops.
Auto power put small hole in front as extra air intake :-P
MRK thanks for 11 years of service :cheers:
jl222
John,
It's not about body class as much as it is about how the hood scoop rule is applied.
The air intake in the front of that car is legal because streamlining forward of the cowl is allowed.
Thanks for the propers. I had a good time working with the SCTA. Saw some historic racing and met some great people.
What more could a boy ask for?
Now I can attend the races and actually enjoy them again. See you in May!
Cheers.
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Thank you for all the replies.
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Thank you for all the replies.
Yeah, your thread kinda got highjacked. Sorry about that.
Good luck with your build.
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I dont feel that way at all. Everyone stayed on topic and had good discussions. A story and some background is good.
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MRK -- Thank you for the years of service.
I just got cornfused about a car with windshield rules. Seems like the discussion bounced back and forth between Altered, Comp, and a little Gas. I've been more involved in running a car with no windshield.
In no way was I trying to infer that your integrity was not the best. In years past, before you did your service, you and I were both witness to a disqualification where an official, reading a rule, added words to it and it led to not certifying a record. In retrospect, I still owned the record.
I'm sad that you were "let go" along with Slim.
(I bailed after 10 or so years on my own accord as I was getting stressed out by someone who knew the job better than my 50 years in the field.)
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MRK -- Thank you for the years of service.
I just got cornfused about a car with windshield rules. Seems like the discussion bounced back and forth between Altered, Comp, and a little Gas. I've been more involved in running a car with no windshield.
In no way was I trying to infer that your integrity was not the best. In years past, before you did your service, you and I were both witness to a disqualification where an official, reading a rule, added words to it and it led to not certifying a record. In retrospect, I still owned the record.
I'm sad that you were "let go" along with Slim.
(I bailed after 10 or so years on my own accord as I was getting stressed out by someone who knew the job better than my 50 years in the field.)
Hey Stan.
Thanks for the recognition.
I was a witness to your incident as I had just started training with DW. I saw a side of him that day that did not sit well with me. I always made sure that I went about my business and didn't let my personal feelings about a competitor get in the way of my duties.
It was a good run and I hope that I'm remembered for being a positive contributor to the cause.
Cheers :cheers:
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MRK -- Thank you for the years of service.
It was a good run and I hope that I'm remembered for being a positive contributor to the cause.
Cheers :cheers:
MRK Our car Lakester #1000 has set a few records over the years and we always believed that you were a positive contributor to the cause. Thank you for your help making Bonneville so special
John
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Sorry Mike,
I cannot stand by and let you or anyone else impugn your predecessor. I have been around Bonneville much longer than you, and unlike you have owned a car.
I realize he was not perfect and had distractors, but I came to respect the man and I hold him and his service to our sport with respect and thanks. He always showed me he cared about the people and cars and the records. I never saw him insult or accuse anyone. If he found a problem, it was discussed without rancor or personalities, or accusations of deliberate, outright cheating, NEVER. I think he knew he was dealing with honest racers, at heart, for the most part.
We do not run for money or trophies, only hats, time slips and bragging rights. Not the cutthroat NASCAR or any other high dollar series that maintain if you are not cheating you are not trying attitude. He also let the competition protest perceived issues. In the long run scheme of things most issues have a way of policing themselves. I see the racers as a varied family with common threads and a shared interest in making our sport better, not more contentious and unfriendly, but fair.
You were bounced for riding around the pits on your bicycle with a haughty, confronting attitude, and picking out infractions that were not infractions by the rule book, from thirty feet away and saying if that ever gets to "my impound" I will not pass it. You did not even get off you bicycle to really look at your perceived infraction close enough to tell it was or was not an infraction. That car in that configuration has held records for over twenty years at Bonneville. And why is it "Your Impound"? And you were bounced for picking out issues to bystanders and not talking, asking or explaining anything directly to a new team, at their first inspection, while going through tech, not impound, and not even realizing the car held records at Mirage for nearly twenty-five years in that configuration without any issues, protests or questions. I know, I know ...."read page nine of the rule book....These are two of the myriad reasons you were bounced from "Your Impound".
Also, your, " I'm the new sheriff in town strut" and condescending, I got the badge attitude, made you a bully not someone a lot of racers I have talked to, trusted or believed in. I am for one am very glad and relieved the SCTA Board bounced you. I hope the new person can restore the reason I came to be with the Bonneville family in the first place. A place we can meet and renew our common love of the place and wonderful people every time we are blessed to be there.
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Stan,
What was your issue, if you did not agree with what was done you should have protested and brought it up to the board.
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Sorry Mike,
I cannot stand by and let you or anyone else impugn your predecessor. I have been around Bonneville much longer than you, and unlike you have owned a car.
I realize he was not perfect and had distractors, but I came to respect the man and I hold him and his service to our sport with respect and thanks. He always showed me he cared about the people and cars and the records. I never saw him insult or accuse anyone. If he found a problem, it was discussed without rancor or personalities, or accusations of deliberate, outright cheating, NEVER. I think he knew he was dealing with honest racers, at heart, for the most part.
We do not run for money or trophies, only hats, time slips and bragging rights. Not the cutthroat NASCAR or any other high dollar series that maintain if you are not cheating you are not trying attitude. He also let the competition protest perceived issues. In the long run scheme of things most issues have a way of policing themselves. I see the racers as a varied family with common threads and a shared interest in making our sport better, not more contentious and unfriendly, but fair.
You were bounced for riding around the pits on your bicycle with a haughty, confronting attitude, and picking out infractions that were not infractions by the rule book, from thirty feet away and saying if that ever gets to "my impound" I will not pass it. You did not even get off you bicycle to really look at your perceived infraction close enough to tell it was or was not an infraction. That car in that configuration has held records for over twenty years at Bonneville. And why is it "Your Impound"? And you were bounced for picking out issues to bystanders and not talking, asking or explaining anything directly to a new team, at their first inspection, while going through tech, not impound, and not even realizing the car held records at Mirage for nearly twenty-five years in that configuration without any issues, protests or questions. I know, I know ...."read page nine of the rule book....These are two of the myriad reasons you were bounced from "Your Impound".
Also, your, " I'm the new sheriff in town strut" and condescending, I got the badge attitude, made you a bully not someone a lot of racers I have talked to, trusted or believed in. I am for one am very glad and relieved the SCTA Board bounced you. I hope the new person can restore the reason I came to be with the Bonneville family in the first place. A place we can meet and renew our common love of the place and wonderful people every time we are blessed to be there.
Wow. There's a lot to unpack here.
I didn't say Dan was a bad person and I don't know the history between him and Jim but what he did that Sunday afternoon was beneath him. It was one of the many lessons I learned from him. I've always held Dan in the highest regard, but I'll also call a spade a spade.
Thank you for explaining why I was replaced. It's certainly more than I got from the SCTA.
All I got was a phone call from Lattin on a Thursday afternoon telling me I was being replaced and that it would be announced during the board reps meeting that following Friday evening.
As for the rest of your rant, it reeks of contempt for me personally, but I won't apologize for who I am or what I did during my tenure.
Cheers.
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What was it that Dan did, I didn't always agree with him and thought several choices he made where personal.
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What was it that Dan did, I didn't always agree with him and thought several choices he made where personal.
I think I'll refrain from any more discussion about DW in this public forum. I've stirred up enough emotions with my comments.
It's time to move on.
Cheers.
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Please read the rule again.
The body stretch must be in the "cowl area in front of the firewall".
I understand that "cowl area" is rather vague
Defined as: cowl: the top portion of the front part of an automobile body forward of the two front doors to which are attached the windshield and instrument board.
Which presents a problem since the firewall is at the front edge of the cowl. I think it should read as the area immediately in front of the firewall. That would also increase WB for stability, get some added engine setback and not add any streamlining effect.
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Well, here goes -- after all these years . . . a little background . . .
The car we're involved with is the #3076 D(orC)/Street Roadster (San Berdoo Roadsters), a car I owned for 57 years.
One morning in August of 2002, I made my first SCTA run. It was to qualify for the long course. We did. Made over the D/STR record speed that afternoon and backed it up the next morning. It's a "real" 28 Model A Roadster. Got doors. Got fenders. Proud of it.
Set C and D records 6 more times up to 2009 at both El Mirage and SpeedWeek (Yes, that's the best way to spell the event to protect your "name" -- all in one word). I spent over 10 years being the Bonneville program editor -- which, among other things, making phone calls to entries across the globe who couldn't tell their Motorcycle from a Comp Coupe.
C/Street Roadster is rough, highly-competitive. If I remember, there've been times with more than 10 entries competing in that particular class. Had a great time. So, as a driver, in 2008 I bumped the record up to 210 and change and knew that was about as fast as the car could go without spending lots of money. I saw the writing on the wall with "Street Roadsters" with plastic bodies, smoothed Coupe' Pillars, non-functioning doors, headlight lenses lapped over the headlight buckets, laid-back grille shells and more. I decided to retire. I'd done so much more that I thought I would and didn't want to spend the bucks to maybe keep up with the newer cars.
After a while Willie Martin asked to join the team and he'd help with expenses and maybe break my still standing 193.390 record. So here we come to 2016 and he runs 194.194 better and we go to Impound.
DW comes in with a new apprentice (MRK) who I did not know. He's closely watching the affair while DW conducts the ceremonies.
"Those back fenders look too wide."
"Better ask Henry about that." (Why in the hell would I widen the fenders -- there're the widest ones in the category?)
"Henry who?"
"Henry #$@& Ford -- he made them."
"The fuel tank is too low."
"It's in the same place it's been in years."
"Here's the rule -- the fuel tank must be above the top of the frame rail.
"It's above the frame rail -- here's the ground, above is the frame rail, above there's the bottom of the fuel tank, as it's always been. (I'd guess that was there to prevent a larger incident if a car's frame rail dropped to the ground.)
"It has to be above the top of the frame rail. I'll get Russ Eyers to come over here.
(5 Minute Break)
Russ comes over, DW explains it to him and again reads the rule adding the words "top of the" frame rail and says, "I'll read it to you Russ." Well, how in the world would Russ have known every word or phrase of every rule in the book. He agrees that it is a little lower than the top of the frame rail.
So we're told that we're done. No fuel check, no displacement check, just told that when you leave Impound there's no way to protest. That's the end of the story.
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Thanks for the update, sorry you had this problem. I'm sure he knew of this issue and could have told you. Kind of like when he got in the 2club at Elmo car ran 205 on the first pass was certified, then he made 2nd pass and ran 200.00 pulled the first cert. Next board meeting rule was changed to Fastest pass counted and had to be taken.
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Please read the rule again.
The body stretch must be in the "cowl area in front of the firewall".
I understand that "cowl area" is rather vague
Defined as: cowl: the top portion of the front part of an automobile body forward of the two front doors to which are attached the windshield and instrument board.
Which presents a problem since the firewall is at the front edge of the cowl. I think it should read as the area immediately in front of the firewall. That would also increase WB for stability, get some added engine setback and not add any streamlining effect.
Thank you for your interpretation. Maybe I was wrong thinking the wheelbase had to remain stock for the Classic part of C/GALT. It was just confusing how to stretch this area that didn't change many other measurements. Just polling the masses.
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Want the cheapest 300 h.p. you will ever buy?? Call Janek and order a Daytona nose and wing.
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Please read the rule again.
The body stretch must be in the "cowl area in front of the firewall".
I understand that "cowl area" is rather vague
Defined as: cowl: the top portion of the front part of an automobile body forward of the two front doors to which are attached the windshield and instrument board.
Which presents a problem since the firewall is at the front edge of the cowl. I think it should read as the area immediately in front of the firewall. That would also increase WB for stability, get some added engine setback and not add any streamlining effect.
Thank you for your interpretation. Maybe I was wrong thinking the wheelbase had to remain stock for the Classic part of C/GALT. It was just confusing how to stretch this area that didn't change many other measurements. Just polling the masses.
The Websters definition of "cowl" doesn't matter when it comes to SCTA rules since it's defined in the rule book under 4.MM.
As far as wheelbase goes in the Altered class, it's open since "any frame can be used". Keep in mind that this cannot affect the body requirements/restrictions of the class.
This is not an "official" statement, and you should check with the committee chair for confirmation.
Cheers.
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Want the cheapest 300 h.p. you will ever buy?? Call Janek and order a Daytona nose and wing.
Thanks Not sure about 300hp, but maybe 150hp. I have spoke to Grant about wings and noses. I would like to not do that as there are already several wing cars out there. No c500 cars. I will if I need to, I have the flush back window is done already and that is the hard part.
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Please read the rule again.
The body stretch must be in the "cowl area in front of the firewall".
I understand that "cowl area" is rather vague
Defined as: cowl: the top portion of the front part of an automobile body forward of the two front doors to which are attached the windshield and instrument board.
Which presents a problem since the firewall is at the front edge of the cowl. I think it should read as the area immediately in front of the firewall. That would also increase WB for stability, get some added engine setback and not add any streamlining effect.
Thank you for your interpretation. Maybe I was wrong thinking the wheelbase had to remain stock for the Classic part of C/GALT. It was just confusing how to stretch this area that didn't change many other measurements. Just polling the masses.
The Websters definition of "cowl" doesn't matter when it comes to SCTA rules since it's defined in the rule book under 4.MM.
As far as wheelbase goes in the Altered class, it's open since "any frame can be used". Keep in mind that this cannot affect the body requirements/restrictions of the class.
This is not an "official" statement, and you should check with the committee chair for confirmation.
Cheers.
This makes sense. Thank you
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Want the cheapest 300 h.p. you will ever buy?? Call Janek and order a Daytona nose and wing.
Thanks Not sure about 300hp, but maybe 150hp. I have spoke to Grant about wings and noses. I would like to not do that as there are already several wing cars out there. No c500 cars. I will if I need to, I have the flush back window is done already and that is the hard part.
speaking from experience, I would double check the rulebook to determine if the rules for the class you are trying to build into allow for a flush mounted back window. unless this is a time only build, in which case my point is moot. i can't wait to see your monster on the flats!
LSRchild
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I have been in discussions about a Charger 500 being legal. As they say only 392 were made, but all Daytonas started as Charger 500s etc. Technically it is production on a Daytona which is a model of the Charger. It shouldn't be an issue as I will never be in impound. It is possible that I decide to make some other changes and just run in Timed. Thanks!