Traction Control

[landracing]

Originally posted by Mike Meierle:
  All of this discussion and nobody brings up the fact that you can have, and use, Traction Control in Production Classes, If so equipped from the Factory.....Hmmmmm I believe That Audi is running Production Supercharged WITH Traction Control, Legally...(at over 180 MPH at WF).

Great all we now is a manufacture to produce a factory streamliner so we can have traction control.
 
 Jon

[landracing]

Need John Rains to put together a new firebird with traction control in it. pushing the 300 mph range, 292 mph record with an older car.  Face it people ALL new cars from 2001 and up have some type of traction control on the vehicles. Not only for high speeds, slippery surfaces etc but for slowing down. Hmmm guess they are just a bunch of young guys who dont know any better.
 
 Jon

[landracing]

The more one stews over this subject. If you put a wheel speed sensor in front of the group, how many would know what it is? If none could name it then who is to say one isn't using traction control. How are you going to regulate it. There is traction control in todays computers running on the salt. Motec for example. I do not know exactly on it works in the motec. But I do know there are many different forms of traction control and how would SCTA even regulate it? If they dont know what to look for. There are several forms of it, use wheel speed, trans speed, driveshaft speeds, ground speed, rpm V wheel speed, etc etc the list can go on and on. I think we are in a electronics age where most couldnt find it anyway even if they were looking for it. So if you can't regulate it save the hassel and allow it.
 
 Jonathan

[landracing]

Here is how one system works with traction control.
 
 When drive wheel slip is noted while the brake is not applied, the EBCM will enter traction control mode.
 First, the EBCM requests the PCM to reduce the amount of torque to the drive wheels via the requested torque signal circuit. The PCM reduces torque to the drive wheels by retarding spark timing and turning off fuel injectors. The PCM reports the amount torque delivered to the drive wheels via the delivered torque signal circuit.
 If the engine torque reduction does not eliminate drive wheel slip, the EBCM will actively apply the drive wheel brakes. During traction control braking, hydraulic pressure in each drive wheel circuit is controlled to prevent the drive wheels from slipping. The master cylinder isolation valve closes in order to isolate the master cylinder from the rest of the hydraulic system. The prime valve then opens in order to allow the pump to accumulate brake fluid in order to build hydraulic pressure for braking.
 
 Sounds like a good way to prevent wheel slip and saving tires to me and possible blowouts.
 
 Jonathan

[landracing]

Are we allowed to use electronic stablility arms on vehicle for stablization?
 
 If so this could be a way to do it.
 
 The Vehicle Stability Enhancement System (VSES) includes an additional level of vehicle control to the EBCM. The VSES is activated by the EBCM calculating the desired yaw rate and comparing it to the actual yaw rate input. The desired yaw rate is calculated from measured steering wheel position, vehicle speed, and lateral acceleration. The difference between the desired yaw rate and actual yaw rate is the yaw rate error, which is a measurement of oversteer or understeer. If the yaw rate error becomes too large, the EBCM will attempt to correct the vehicle's yaw motion by applying differential braking to the left or right front wheel.
 The amount of differential braking applied to the left or right front wheel is based on both the yaw rate error and side slip rate error. The side slip rate error is a function of the lateral acceleration minus the product of the yaw rate and vehicle speed. The yaw rate error and side slip rate error are combined to produce the total delta velocity error. When the delta velocity error becomes too large and the VSES system activates, the driver's steering inputs combined with the differential braking will attempt to bring the delta velocity error toward zero.
 The EBCM also uses the input from the brake fluid pressure sensor for more accurate braking control during VSES.
 The VSES activations generally occur during aggressive driving, in the turns or bumpy roads without much use of the accelerator pedal. When braking during VSES activation, the brake pedal will feel different than the ABS pedal pulsation. The brake pedal pulsates at a higher frequency during VSES activation.
 
 
 Jonathan

[landracing]

Here is how Ford does it.
 
 The traction control system controls wheelspin by modulating the engine torque by communicating to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and by applying, then releasing, the appropriate brake to restore traction when one or both drive wheels lose traction and begin to spin during acceleration.
 
 
 Jonathan

[landracing]

Porsche,
 
 ABS / TC 5.3 (4-channel system) system description
 
 TC prevents spinning of the drive wheels when moving off and accelerating. Driving stability and traction are improved over the entire speed range.
 
 Traction Control (TC) is ready for operation when ever the engine is started.
 
 Driving-stability control:
 If Traction Control (TC) detects that a certain speed difference between the wheels has been exceeded (wheel spin), engine power is automatically reduced
 
 
 Jonathan
 
  <small>[ November 15, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: JonAmo ]</small>

[JackD]

Sooo, at least they retired all the previous records set with traction control. NO?
 I have some 97's for sale that should cure that pesky tire spin thing. I was going to give them away.

[Joe Law 355 lakester]

This T.C. controversy should never have existed since the rule book for years said "innovation is unlimited" in special construction vehicles.  Then our dinosaur board decided to hinder safety progress by outlawing t.c.  It is the only violation of rules that mets a 3yr. punishment.  This same board criticized Earl Wooden after he crashed his Comp Coupe saying he spun his tires too hard, which caused a crash.
 If a person was to build a twin engine streamliner with one engine in front and one behind the driver and a drive shaft connecting the two engines, it would be legal, but if you connected the engines electrically it would be considered t.c.  If the board insists on outlawing t.c., then multi-engine streamliners should not be connected in the middle i.e. let the front engine drive only the front and rear drive on the rear.

[landracing]

Im saying Computers are more accurate in knowing when excessive wheel spin occurs over a driver in the car. The complexity of the computers allows even for yaw rates and steering wheel angle to help better control the vehicle.  For cripes sake a 2001 Geo Metro probably teh cheapest vehicle ever made in the world had traction control even for all 3 cylinders, but maybe someone like Burklands or Marlo may enjoy that feature on who knows how much money invested can't utilize the same technology as a Geo metro.
 
 If it is really about safety then it should be legal.
 
 Jonathan

[JohnR]

You know, I was not even going to get into the definition of traction control. How can you ban it without defining it?
 
 The only reason I bring this up is that in a previous life I assisted in work on a definition of traction control for a major sanctioning body (CART). It took 2 years and many aborted attempts before it was concluded that it is near impossible to define specifically and virtually impossible to police.
 
 In the end, CART gave up and legalized It. As did F1. If F1 cant police it who can? Hell, even NHRA is allowing it in the Summit Sport Compact Drag Racing series. NHRA!
 
 No matter how you choose to define it, the letter of the rule can easily be circumvented, as was illustrated from the above posts by jon. And I could rattle off an additional 3-5 ways to do it.
 
 Think about this, If SCTA suspected that you ran "Traction Control" and disallowed your record, and you protested, SCTA could not even define TC let alone prove that you used it.
 
 There are definitions in the rule book but not one for traction control. You would think that the only thing that gets you the death penalty (3 yr ban for you and the horse you rode in on) would at least be defined!
 
 Regards,
 
 John Romero

[JohnR]

Originally posted by JonAmo:
  ... technology as a Geo metro.

Hey, thats why Ken's so mad, he just realized that the Hudson Boys Geo is more advanced than his liner!   :p

[JohnR]

:p
 
  <small>[ November 15, 2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: John Romero ]</small>

[Joe Law 355 lakester]

Between the rules committee  meeting and the board meeting, the "dictators"" told the "sheep" how to vote, because they didn't want some "hillbilly" breaking their record.  Just a thought.

[JohnR]

:p