Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: SPARKY on April 28, 2014, 09:58:03 AM
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I am CONFUSED :-o -- nothing new but this time I am getting conflicting information:
When I contacted Goodyear I was verbally told that the tire was to be mounted on an Automotive J rim. When we went into the field and check with drag racers what we have found are apparently mounted on motorcycle wheels.
Terry Mouer has both specs---there is little difference in specs that we can find by careful comparison that he has found.
We would like to have Goodyear's written requirements for mounting this tire---when we called --- we were told "I am a tire guy, not a wheel guy!! Does any one know of the "wheel guy" or how to find him!! Thanks
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Watching these closely too Sparky
rim width of 2.5" , i dont think it would realy matter where that rim originated
How would you know if you had the new 2904 or are all these 300mph rated ? and the previously used tires a different number ?
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Goodyear lists 2 17" Front Runners on their web site under drag tires
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Thanks yes i saw that but wanted to be sure.... i dont want to get old stock thats not suitable
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Goodyear #2904 22x4-17
Jason the "Tire Guy" came through:
2904 were designed to be mounted on Automotive, 5 deg. Drop Center Rims 17" diam. wheels J(ISO) Contour
Rim Width 2.5" to 3.5"
The specs are available at: The Tire and Rim Association Inc.
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I feel sure that the 2904 is the only 17" tire Goodyear has released for LSR use.
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Sparky
That's a relief that you now have a definite answer on the type of rim to use.
steve
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Steve, I feel that LSR now knows what wheel the tire was designed to be run on. We have not been able to find car 17" wheels
or rim blanks for automotive 17" wheels.
I feel most of the drag teams are most likely running on motorcycle wheels.
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Summit list a range of frontrunner rims, but all spindle mount in the 2.125 and 2.5 rim widths
next closest is a 17 x 4.0 centreline rim
Do you realy need the J section rim which i take to be the safety bead rim, correct me if i am mistaken
As i remember a conversation on here previously where it was seen that at the very high pressures these tires run its not necessary ?
My application will be slightly different as a bike will see no sideload that a potentially weaving or spinning car could get
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you are correct there are several bead seat combos on the page --the major reason we chose the 2.75" rim width was to miminize the need for the beads one of the combos offered is inboard none and out board flat that is our choice.
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:-D Great News LSR racers! Hooray for Jason & Goodyear. Jason came through with the promised information and copied SCTA!
MORE great news-- they are making a single run in June of (if my Sr. memory serves me)
21" 23" 25" and 28" 15 LSR tires--- so get your orders in.. Mark at Carter-Maxwell Goodyear Race tire distributor in OKC was most helpful in trying to help get the information needed.
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If you can't find 17" wheels to your spec, you might try MRW http://www.mrt-wheels.com/
Not everything they make are on their site.
They made some inexpensive narrow heavy duty 18's for us. Built like manhole covers, very strong. AND they put a non-racing lug pattern on them for us.
However, don't mention land speed racing. Come up with a different application. Seems somebody in the LSR community might have pissed the owner off, and they might refuse to make them.
I called, was refused. Then called by 2 months later and said they were sled-pulling fronts, and they made them.
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A little bedtime story about drag tires:
Once upon a time a guy was returning from Bandimere (Denver) to California.
Due to a lack of planning, the spare for the tow vehicle was left behind.
So of course, a truck that had brand new tires on it, and had not had a flat in over 100,000 miles, got a flat.
Luckily, the racecar used the same rims as tow truck. And the race car was VERY heavy at 6700lb.
So it was assumed that the DOT rated drag tire that was rated at over 200mph for dragracing, and easily went 130mph many times at heavy loads would be OK for 20 miles to the next town.
But, the heat generated by sustained 55mph operation was not something the tire enjoyed. After 10 miles, it began to develop delamination on the sidewalls. Another 2 miles later it exploded. The tire was 3 months old (by date code) with only 1 event on it.
While this tale does not necessarily apply to Goodyear (these were M&H's that I and hundreds of others continue to use today), speed ratings for drag tires are not tested for sustained operation, not even DOT models.
By comparison, DOT street tires with only a 149 mph rating easily endure huge loads at high speeds for years and tens of thousands of miles. In fact, one model required 35? miles at 2200lb loading spinning 215mph before a piece of tread came off. The tire did not fail, it only went out of balance. The reason the tire was not tested at higher speeds or loads was simply because the testing lab could not go higher.
Sadly DOT street tires are frowned upon for high speed use by the SCTA. Tires that don't even get warm at 175mph for 50 miles straight aren't good for 175mph operation.
Cars and tires have changed dramatically in the last 80 years. There are over 50 models of new cars that are capable of speeds over 200mph today. Tires today ran out of speed ratings. (Y) is the highest rating possible (more than 186mph) and doesn't have a top speed rating. They had never expected cars to go over 150mph until relatively recently, hence the Z rating ratings the SCTA uses. Z was the highest letter. But as time went on, they had to scramble to find tire designations. W rating came out to remove the Z rating, but cars went faster still. So they added a Y rating. Surely no OEM car will exceed 186mph. Right? DOH!!! They were now out of letters and gave up. Today's supercars that run their tanks dry at 250mph use a (Y) rated tire, which means (Why didn't we see this coming?). They shortened it to simply (Y).
And then they lived happily ever after (until the 300 mph street cars come out that is).
The End.
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OPPS!
The moral of the story is: If the speed you want to drive at is 175-250 mph, the safest tire you can run is a (Y) ZP design. These are the high performance "run flats" that 200+ mph street cars come with. They will not come apart, delaminate, chunk, and they will even take a nail or two safely.
200mph production cars are so common now, that even the stock Ford Mustangs (GT500) go 200+ now.
The only reason there is not an American station wagon that goes 200mph is that it's speed limiter is set at 179.
Who would have imagined that 30 years ago?
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....However, don't mention land speed racing. Come up with a different application. Seems somebody in the LSR community might have pissed the owner off, and they might refuse to make them.
I called, was refused. Then called by 2 months later and said they were sled-pulling fronts, and they made them..
Are you sure they weren't refusing for a different reason, like they felt they weren't appropriate for the application?
I ordered wheels a couple months ago and again last week and had long talks with the owner both times and he was making the wheels specifically for an LSR car. All of the wheels for Hooley's Stude have come from them,
Sum
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....However, don't mention land speed racing. Come up with a different application. Seems somebody in the LSR community might have pissed the owner off, and they might refuse to make them.
I called, was refused. Then called by 2 months later and said they were sled-pulling fronts, and they made them..
Are you sure they weren't refusing for a different reason, like they felt they weren't appropriate for the application?
I ordered wheels a couple months ago and again last week and had long talks with the owner both times and he was making the wheels specifically for an LSR car. All of the wheels for Hooley's Stude have come from them,
Sum
They didn't give me a reason at all on my first call. That's what made me think he was po'd at someone. You know how grumpy old guys get. This is late 2008, early 2009. If you see one of these 18" wheels, it's obvious they are fine for heavy duty and high speed applications. Ran like it was on rails, sturdy as heck. If they weren't so crazy heavy, I'd have had him make my drag rims.
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well, Well, WELL---guess what sports fans---maybe the report of the FAT LADY having sung was in error!!!
Terry got a returned phone call today (not from Goodyear), from a person who had been out of the office for 10 days--- this person was represented to be "the wheel guy" when asked about what kind of wheels their front runners mounted on---why automotive of course----
"By chance do you have their specs?"
Sure I have the right here with the car specs----when he read them off--- You are the WINNER!!! What he read off are motorcycle!!
If we get the drawings and specs as promosied---we will be making follow up phone calls!!!
As they used to say on the old radio serials---Tune in tomorrow Same time same Station!!!
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Sparky they also used to say, "Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of men!" :-D
Tenacity aka anality pays off sometimes! :cheers:
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10-4 on the sometimes---these young guys ---haven't lived throught this evolution!!
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Made several more phone calls---Have come to the conclusion that the inmates are running the asylum!
Drag teams want to run the lightest thing possible.
There is virtually no load on these things until the chute is out. Their application loads them up after the run, stop so fast---it does not ruin their day if they loose air, flat run and destroy the tire.
Much different than us---thank goodness Goodyear designed a tire that can be run on an AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL!!!
Thank YOU GOODYEAR for all of your LSR tires!! We appreciate and run them ALL!!
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If the speed you want to drive at is 175-250 mph, the safest tire you can run is a (Y) ZP design.
amen.
if you notice the most popular (y) applications they are Michelin "pilot super sport" and "Pilot Sport Cup"
Ill bet they are tested to speeds way over what you will ever need. but then i am only guessing.
I think the test machine only goes to 240mph; but they are run as OE tires on super cars like the Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4.
hmmmm
drag tires are good for 1/4 mile
Fred
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CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:evil: Much different than us---thank goodness Goodyear designed a tire that can be run on an AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL!!! :evil:
CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!! The above is a misstatement of fact!!!!!!!!!!!
We have NOT been able to mount the 2904 on automotive spec rims.
We have had the 2904 at 2 different tire shops that specialize in RACE tires---they were not able to mount. My opinion is they are not designed to mount on automotive wheels as stated by others on this web site. YMMV
I can be contacted through this site.
Sparky
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CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:evil: Much different than us---thank goodness Goodyear designed a tire that can be run on an AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL!!! :evil:
CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!! The above is a misstatement of fact!!!!!!!!!!!
We have NOT been able to mount the 2904 on automotive spec rims.
We have had the 2904 at 2 different tire shops that specialize in RACE tires---they were not able to mount. My opinion is they are not designed to mount on automotive wheels as stated by others on this web site. YMMV
I can be contacted through this site.
What does Goodyear say, Bill? :?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Sparky
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Neil no official response yet!! :roll:
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Bill;
Give them a call.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Well the Fat Lady still hasn't started singing but we are pretty sure we know what song she is going to sing--- I am pretty sure I have heard the notes of the real last song!!
There was a mix up in the music sheets, resulting in some bad information being published!!
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Publisher is very quiet
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LOL :cheers: that seems to so far be the case
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I am really at a loss reading this discussion. I mounted my 2904's with my own two hands using a brake adjusting spoon and a screw driver and it took me no more then 5 minutes with no damage to the bead. I used plain old fashioned dish soap as a lube. They just pumped right up and bead perfectly. I balance them by using dry bearings and a couple thou. of clearance. Heavy spot goes to the bottom. Then I simply experiment with tape on lead weight till you put it in several positions and it stays put. Same as we balanced GO Kart tires. I have never felt a vibration, but I don't go that fast I guess.
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My guess is you are mounting the tires on rims they were designed for. :roll:
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I am really at a loss reading this discussion. I mounted my 2904's with my own two hands using a brake adjusting spoon and a screw driver and it took me no more then 5 minutes with no damage to the bead. I used plain old fashioned dish soap as a lube. They just pumped right up and bead perfectly. I balance them by using dry bearings and a couple thou. of clearance. Heavy spot goes to the bottom. Then I simply experiment with tape on lead weight till you put it in several positions and it stays put. Same as we balanced GO Kart tires. I have never felt a vibration, but I don't go that fast I guess.
How is the scrub radius working out using those wheels?
Sum
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I might be wrong, But I mounted my T/F tires on T/F wheels, put them on T/F spindles, (dont care about scrub radius) and the car drives like a DREAM . I can drive it anywhere I want to go on the course at over 225 at elmo. :-D :-D :-D
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TF spindles are Anglia based would be my guess.
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What grates a little is the metal rolling and heat treating is still underway for my 3 piece rims and i already know there wrong and will have to complete the sale
at least rim halves are not that expensive and i can get more done to the correct specs, just not in time for this season
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Stop the heat treat and re machine ??? we are going to be able to but it was close
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Spun metal not machined , not enough material there to change , they arrive here tomorrow :(
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Sumner, my car :lol: is a front wheel drive. These tires and wheels are just following along for the ride.
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:cheers: yeah and you have them mounted on wheels they were made for!
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Sumner, my car :lol: is a front wheel drive. These tires and wheels are just following along for the ride.
Yep, I forgot these were going to be the rear wheels/tires ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bville-cars-1/91-2-07.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bville-cars-1/91-1-07.jpg)
... my bad and I'm sure they will be going faster than before :-),
Sum
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Hopefully I can get the "Publisher" to straighten out the Fat Lady's published "music" this week---if not I will try to put two and two together and put this crazy 2904 thing to bed.
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Well the "opera company" the fat lady and the publisher don't seem to be interested in ending the final act.
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My results are the same
getting another tire on the way to BMST (Bubs)
and i intend measuring the various sections on that tire and comparing to the MC and Car specs we have seen, it should be obvious at that point
seems to be too much vested interest to get an objective answer
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Yes, MY ASSUMPTIONS are:
in one case the wheel supplier supplied the wrong information about their wheels
the other supplier passed it on without verifying it ---
but we all know about assumptions--- they are subjective :roll: :-o YMMV
Caution!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is MY opinion: YMMV
If one wishes to run these 2904's they are approved for LSR use by Goodyear for 1200# at 90 PSI to 300MPH
In all of the DRAG race teams we checked with that are running these 2904 tires we found none that they though or we thought were running the 2904 on AUTOMOTIVE wheels.
I personally spent time with 2 wheel manufactures in the greater Phoenix area--- in their manufacturing areas, one of them PROVED to me with his Master 1/2 wheel made to MC specs almost drops in one of the 2904 tires. The other makes a wheel that is slightly smaller that MC wheel specs.---it has a reputation of being easy to mount.
In MY OPINION-----THE BOTTOM LINE IS:
The 2904 is a MC spec tire that is being mostly used for automotive use-- ie TOP FUEL dragsters, it has a great reputation.
The wheels the racers we talked to run them on wheels that are made to MC specs.
The two wheel manufactures in the Phoenix area make dragster wheels to MC specs.
My Wheels are designed for Automotive use and are being modified in the rim area to MC specs so that we can mount the 2904 tires. This is possible because the Auto. specs are larger and it is possible to remove more material to bring them down to MC dimensions.
MY ADVICE for 2904 want-a-be LSR users---
S.C.T.A. RULES to be aware of :
1.R
2.F
2.G
READ, READ & Re-READ rules 2.F , 2.G ESPECIALLY last sentence of fourth paragraph of 2.G
Then reread 1.R
YMMV
see you on the LAKEBEDS
sparky
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Have set 17x4 4" backspace Corvette wheels....new.... Listed in for sale section.
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and your point is about 2904 tires
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Sparky
your point about the regulations also to me brings up the difference in needs between a mc and car rim, mc is never designed for the loads a car could put on them in a slide or spin ,, they may or may not be able to cope with the loads in all conditions
So what you have done with getting wheels made and George having to buy wheels for car application does make sense
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Maj, my point was that my wheels are made with the off set needs of my car taken into consideration, they in no way resemble any MC wheel, they are not symmetrical.
They are designed to fit on shortened full size Ford spindles and not on Angelia spindles---we did that for a larger safety margin due to our scrub radius requirements with these small narrow tires.
With the small height of the tire, 90 psi, and our very thick flange, no one we have talked to, during the design or after seeing them has expressed any concern about them being damaged from side loads on the wheel.
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Yes the correct design for your application
my standard wheel would seem to be right for my application, just need confirmation of tire fitment
and once that happens i dont see the need for any rule change though i will be checking with both car and motorcycle tech on there requirements before just turning up
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MAJ, I am using the the front wheels off my TAD from 20 years ago. They went 240 in 1/4 mile and have SFI stickers. The older heavier ones, $200 a pair at any swap meet.
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MAJ
We are in the process of turning my Automotive wheels rims down to MC specs about .100 smaller in diam and the flange taper changes
will post when I get them back and mount the 2904 on them!!
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I received a phone call yesterday---The Fat Lady wants to sing--- is working behind the scenes with parties that be---
so she can sing the "correct last song" and publish it for all to see.. as they say --it ain't over till it over, and she hasn't sung :cheers:
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Good news
On the way to the BMST we stopped at Summit and i brought another tire, and they were good enough to bring out a Spindle wheel and a narrow 5 bolt wheel, with both in hand and the tire there is no confusion,
a spindle wheel is pretty much a motorcycle wheel, and the tire has the narrow bead seat, tight radius and shorter bead lip to suit a motorcycle type wheel.
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:cheers: yepers that is pretty much it as we see it :-D
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The sound of silence from the "FAT LADY" is DEAFENING" :cry:
This LSR tire is clearly built to run a MC spec 17" rim --- the 1320 guys have been running for over 50 years.
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We have our first wheel and tire mounted and we will be installing them soon---MR. Podunk is not a cheap date but he sure has good stuff
A 2.75 x 17 wheel that was built to Automotive specs per Goodyear's and WELD's instruction and later modified to MC flange specs so the tires will mount! Thank you Goodyear for all the HELP!!!!
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Saw 'em up close and personal in Indiana.
Terry's #1 in my book, and even if I had the facilities and the chops to do 'em myself, I'd still have him do it.
Those wheels are works of art. :cheers:
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FYI
Some open wheel cars that have been in the wind tunnel show 2 to 3 "ticks" improvement using flat wheel disks.
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Mike, we had to have the offset them this much to get rid of the scrub radius using modified early Ford spindles. But I will keep that in mind if we ever build another set. Thanks for the ticks heads up some where down the road we may need those ticks.
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Those are all just such bitchin roadsters what a sight almost makes one want to become a roadster toad
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I don't remember seeing the 144 C/GR. Really a beautiful car anyone have some info on it.
Rex
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Rex, they have only run at Wilmington so far! Too wet out west! :cry:
Ron & Jon from ERC in NC and it is even prettier up close! :cheers:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos?pid=6063554161250907042&oid=111053800401265205999&authkey=CIiglN7Un7PMdQ
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From the seldom-seen 2014 SpeedWeek Program . . .
144 Dennison & Liddell
1929 Ford Roadster, 360” Chevy V-8
Owners: Jon Dennison, Ron Liddell – Winston Salem, North Carolina
Driver: Jon Dennison
Crew Chief: Ron Liddell
Crew: Gary Dennison, Doug Dennison
Sponsors: Rod Crafters, Cometic Gaskets, Brown & Miller,
Jesel Valvetrain, Quartermaster
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C/GR is a tough class, record is around 231 and Ed Renck from Colorado ran 249 at the World of Speed last September in his beautiful 28 roadster before losing a motor and missing the record so I hope the weather is good this year and they make it to Bonneville for a great shoot out in the C/GR class.
Rex
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I believe Ron Liddell built the engine for Ed Renck. Ron builds engines for Richard Childress Racing and I pretty sure his roadster is going to haul.
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My second wheel and tire is in Tucson to be mounted and balanced, In talking with the tech is said he heard scuttlebutt Goodyear's LSR efforts may not be over--maybe just up dating sizes