Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: ship on September 18, 2013, 01:10:33 PM
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I'm not new to racing but completely new to LSR and I am trying to decide between the two cars sitting in my garage to build for a Bonneville event
1955 Buick Century with a front clip from an oldsmobile and a chevy 350
The front subframe is cut in front of the firewall and the body of the car is completely stock right now
I was thinking of a competition coupe build for this one and putting in an older nailhead engine with the biggest displacement I can get away with.
this car has the aerodynamics of a brick but its an old school hotrod and that's cool to me.
I also have a 1992 mercedes 190e with a mercedes 300 motor swapped in with a 5 speed. I really think I could make this car competitive with the crew chief I have but it's not as cool in my opinion.
what do you all think? I'm reading and rereading the SCTA rule book trying to do the math on engine combinations and body alterations but I have no idea what I'm talking about yet.
thanks for your time
Ship
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The cost of the base you build a land speed car on is a minor fraction of the cost of developing and racing it. Why not start with something you think has the BEST chance of being successful, like a body with lower drag than others in its category? Aero is almost free. Horsepower is expensive.
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Tortoise advise is good. On the other hand if you do choose one of your existing projects it's sure to be interesting and some people have done some amazing things with choices that shouldn't have worked. Keep us abreast of things and start a build thread when you get under way.
Pete
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The mercedes already has front and rear suspension designed to be stable at autobahn speeds. Although the brakes may suck, it will save tons of work to reduce scrub radius.
The aero is light years ahead of the buick, and overall a more competetive package.
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If you are record hunting the choice is probably wrong but if you are personal goal & fun hunting, then what ever blows your skirt up will be the right choice.
There have been some unusual land barges run over the years.
Sid.
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The '55 Buick body falls into the Classic Category classes, 1928 - 1981.
That said, there is no competition coupe class available within that category. The best aero package you will allowed to use is that governed by the Altered rules. If you do decide to go down the full comp coupe road you will be running against vehicles with much smaller OEM bodies. The 350 falls into the C engine break where all class records in comp coupe are way North of 250 MPH.
Homework is your friend here,
DW
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The mercedes already has front and rear suspension designed to be stable at autobahn speeds. Although the brakes may suck, it will save tons of work to reduce scrub radius.
The aero is light years ahead of the buick, and overall a more competetive package.
Are brakes and scrub radius important at Bonneville?
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Regarding the Mercedes, you are after my own heart. I have owned a bunch of W201 (190-class) Benzes, all diesels. The aero is pretty decent on those cars. My current daily driver is a '93 190E that has had a transplanted 2.5L turbodiesel / 5-speed drivetrain.
For reference sake, the record in F/Production (3Liter, production bodywork), is 167 mph. I "think" that's the most likely fit for a 190E with nominal 3 liter engine.
The 167 mph record was set by a Nissan/Datsun Z-car. That's pretty sleek competition.
Steve.
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The mercedes already has front and rear suspension designed to be stable at autobahn speeds. Although the brakes may suck, it will save tons of work to reduce scrub radius.
The aero is light years ahead of the buick, and overall a more competetive package.
Are brakes and scrub radius important at Bonneville?
Nah!! Ya don't even need a steering wheel, just unload it pointed in the right direction. :-D :evil:
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Don't know about losing the steering wheel, But I have been over 2 and not had much need of brakes. And I wasn't cutting the cones but going straight as I could. Which was pretty straight. It's not an autoX. And i do have a 'chute. Scrub radius seems like something that may come into play on the return road. But speeds are not that great when pushing. So why would I go to any pains to concern myself over a less than ideal 0 scrub radius?
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Another plus for the Mercedes is that if you are concerned with scrub radius, those Benzes run a lot of negative offset on the wheels. (Maybe it's positive offset, I can never remember which way is which). Anyway, the wheels "tuck in" pretty deep.
Steve.
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Close to 0 scrub radius can take the twitch outa twitchy.
Running a 55 Buick with an Olds front clip would, I think, take you past Pro, Gas, Alt and land you in Comp where the Olds wouldn't be that advantageous.
But you could have the world's fastest 55 Buolds with a nailhead in it.
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Ask Jeff Brock , what his choice would be .
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Close to 0 scrub radius can take the twitch outa twitchy....
Brakes not important but more that one person who has had the scrub radius off very much has had a lot of difficulty going down the course. I've done what I can to get it as close as possible on the lakester. Now if I ever get it on the salt I might know if it was worth it.
I became aware of it years ago when some guys that run a roadster told me how terrible the car ran until they got it straightened out. Ask Sparky what it was like before and after fixing scrub radius :-).
Negative or positive offset can be a good thing if it gets the scrub radius close to zero. Tire diameter, spindle design, wheel offset, hub design and castor all effect it...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-21.html
If you haven't had problems then keep doing what you are doing. If the car is hard to drive possibly look into it as a possible cause,
Sum
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Scrub Radius is not something I thought about at all when I built my cars. I either used earlyFord spindles with Centerlines or Ford wheels. Or on the Vega I had early Econoline spindles with Centerlines. Worked for hundreds of thousands of cars and miles. Worked fine for me. I can see how it could get screwed up. But I don't think either of the OP cars would need much attention in that area. Maybe?
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It might seem obvious, but... I believe it's important to really like the racecar one has chosen. Inevitably, the time comes somewhere during a racecar project when technical problems and bad luck might conspire to make one wonder: "what the hell am I doing this for...?"
Anyway -sounds like you like both of your cars. :cheers:
If you have an unlimited budget, have unlimited time, are a skilled automotive engineer, or all the above (!), you can readily make any 4-wheeled automobile go fast.
I recommend you build the Benz, because:
A) German sedans are intrinsically safe and engineered to travel at 120-150 mph when they roll off the assembly line.
and
B) There are a number of reasonably attainable records for in Production or Gas Coupe, or perhaps even in Blown Gas Coupe, should you decide one day to stuff a Kompressor engine in it, or a big ol' normally-aspirated 32v V8, -à la the AMG Hammer, from years ago.
Good Luck!
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Scrub Radius is not something I thought about at all when I built my cars. I either used earlyFord spindles with Centerlines or Ford wheels. Or on the Vega I had early Econoline spindles with Centerlines. Worked for hundreds of thousands of cars and miles. Worked fine for me. I can see how it could get screwed up. But I don't think either of the OP cars would need much attention in that area. Maybe?
there are thousands of street rods out there with terrible scrub radius that work fine on the street but will they drive good on the salt over 175? The combo you have can work well as you have shown. What is your scrub radius ... maybe not that bad?
I'll also take a different track than some and say consider very carefully just using what is in the garage for a car to build. How many of us say that a record isn't important and then later it is. Look for the best combination, car/engine wise you can get/afford up front and put your time and money into it vs. something that will never be competitive and probably not easy to ever sell if you want to move on. I'm not an authority on what the OP has, but if he knows going in that it would never be competitive then why build it?
Sum
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:-D Since both are enclosed cars one weighing a lot. This means there will be more rust to form on that one. Over time and not much of it aluminum will turn into Alka-Selzer so you need think of that too.
. If the bug hits you hard enough it will lead you to a fiberglass open wheel car maybe with head in the air. I will comment that unless you really like building cars with lots of safety requirements you may look to the USFRA's World of Speed 130 and150 club for starters.
Good Luck.....it will all be fun.......
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Mercedes W201 chassis also have a pretty significant racing heritage, a good knowledge base (several internet forums devoted to this chassis and the W123 and W124 cars), and readily available aftermarket parts from suspension, engine, and safety equipment suppliers.
At one time, I had a W201 16-V "roller" chassis that I wanted to turn into a diesel powered LSR car. This was before I understood anything about how the LSR rules worked. After realizing that there were no separate diesel car classes, and that I might have to run in a blown fuel class, I quickly abandoned that project, along with the time and money I had devoted to it.
Picture this - Mercedes Cosworth 16V air dam and lower bodywork, slammed ride height, tucked in wheels with Moon disks, full DTM style (SCTA compliant) roll cage, any variety of engines, from de-stroked 16V Cosworth, to a 3 Liter production engine, to an AMG V-8 which would put the car in the Gas Coupe category... It's a beautiful thing to picture in your mind's eyes.
If I remember correctly, when the 16V Cosworth cars were introduced, they had one of the lowest Cd's of any production sedan at the time.
Steve.
Steve.
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There's a '73 or '74 Vega Cosworth for sale at one of the used car lots up here. I believe the tag on the windshield says $5995. Anybody want contact information for the dealership?
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Mercedes W201 chassis also have a pretty significant racing heritage, a good knowledge base (several internet forums devoted to this chassis and the W123 and W124 cars), and readily available aftermarket parts from suspension, engine, and safety equipment suppliers.
At one time, I had a W201 16-V "roller" chassis that I wanted to turn into a diesel powered LSR car. This was before I understood anything about how the LSR rules worked. After realizing that there were no separate diesel car classes, and that I might have to run in a blown fuel class, I quickly abandoned that project, along with the time and money I had devoted to it.
Picture this - Mercedes Cosworth 16V air dam and lower bodywork, slammed ride height, tucked in wheels with Moon disks, full DTM style (SCTA compliant) roll cage, any variety of engines, from de-stroked 16V Cosworth, to a 3 Liter production engine, to an AMG V-8 which would put the car in the Gas Coupe category... It's a beautiful thing to picture in your mind's eyes.
If I remember correctly, when the 16V Cosworth cars were introduced, they had one of the lowest Cd's of any production sedan at the time.
Steve.
Steve.
I was thinking this exact same thing.
But I dont think I can put the 16v body on a stock 201 if I'm reading the rules correctly? I have all the parts for that body
I love both my cars and would have a blast even if I never set a record. life's about the experience to me I guess.
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Am I screwed up? . . . well, yeah!
I'm thinking that according to some rule that says under some circumstances some time somewhere, if there ain't a diesel class available, you can run diesel in GASOLINE class.
Every year a diesel-powered Street Roadster runs in Blown Street Roadster (a closer look shows a lot of ventilation out the rear deck (non-compliant), but if you don't take it to Impound, no one, even me, seems to mind.
So can a blown diesel run in Production Supercharged?