Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Kansas Bad Man on July 23, 2015, 07:09:50 AM
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The word to me means unlimited in cubic inch displacment
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I didn't get to finish my message , hit send some how. First correct the spelling of unlimited in title, next the question . The word unlimited to me means unlimited. Can you run an engine displacement in unlimited class in m/c below 3000 cc as long as you meet all other requirements of class such as a minimum of two engines and so on? If you cant explain the logic as to why not.
Max
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Some organizations allow you to move up in classes (ECTA) but SCTA doesn't if that is who you are referring to.
Personally I support it as now you have people competing on a more or less even playing field having to set records with engines that are available in that displacement range. In some displacement classes you might be able to find a smaller engine that is more highly refined. In blown classes, especially with turbos/intercoolers smaller engines might be able to dominate classes of larger displacement, especially in special construction where frontal area comes into play since they can fit in a vehicle with a smaller frontal area.
Cases can be made for allowing it but SCTA doesn't so those are the rules if you are racing for a SCTA record,
Sumner
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I prefer to keep the motorcycle in the class it belongs in.
That's just me and my opinion.
Saltwheels 262
Franey
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So Summer, you are saying that if I were to build a 4 engine special construction m/c with 500 cc NORTON MANX ENGINES and meet all the requirements for the unlimited class I would not be able to run in that class as it would be only 2000 cc not the over 3001 requirement as you suggest? If not unlimited what class would the 4 engine NORTON run in? :?
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Like I told you Max, special construction.... A classes.... by motor size....
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The question was, if not unlimited , what would the 4 engine Norton run in? IT seems the only class would be unlimited as that class is the only one in m/c classifications that would allow 4 engines. :?
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jeeze I think SS1-- just told you have to go find a 5th eng
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Why is special construction necessary to tag for unlimited class, it seems logic would say in my case it would be U / VPF . The engine size in special construction is to protect each class as to engine size which is logical and I agree . The unlimited class logic is spelled out in Webster, the size is no longer relevant, its unlimited engine has no longer parameters and has no starting point. If there is a starting point it is no longer unlimited . The class is NOT protected by engine size that would defy logic. Could the person or persons give there ruling on this question .
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Cant do that , the class only allows 4 engines Sparky. Same question what would the 4 Norton bike run in?????
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I know the motorcycle streamliner class allows up to 4 engines. The total displacement of all the engines would be the class you are in. If you were running 4 500cc Norton engines I would think you would be in 2000 S-VG, VF, VBG, or VBF depending on if it's blown and fuel of course. I don't have a rule book on me and I don't remember off hand if A allows 4 engines but Stainless says it does. In that case you would be 2000 A or APS instead of S. If you want to run it in the 3001+ class you are going to have to punch the Nortons out to over 750cc each.
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I don't see a Vintage Pushrod engine class. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. There is only a 9/1 ratio of classes available to number of SpeedWeek entries. More classes available would ensure that every bike entered could run on an open record. Wait -- I think if they were careful, they could do that now!
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I meant to say the person or persons who wrote the rule give there opinion. JUST A QUESTION THAT HAS NOT BEEN ANSWERD, DONT MEAN TO :dhorse:
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If you want the answer form them I would email them. The contact info is in the rule book.
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I know the motorcycle streamliner class allows up to 4 engines. The total displacement of all the engines would be the class you are in. If you were running 4 500cc Norton engines I would think you would be in 2000 S-VG, VF, VBG, or VBF depending on if it's blown and fuel of course. I don't have a rule book on me and I don't remember off hand if A allows 4 engines but Stainless says it does. In that case you would be 2000 A or APS instead of S. If you want to run it in the 3001+ class you are going to have to punch the Nortons out to over 750cc each.
SCTA AND FIM rules for the streamliner class's has a 3000 cc max and only two engines are allowed in the top class . So if there is a unlimited class
which allows 4 engines could 4 500 cc Norton's run ?
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Doesn't the SCTA rule book say special construction is two or more engines? It doesn't clarify how many just more than one. If the total of your 4 500cc Nortons was 2000cc or under it would run in the 2000CC class. if it totaled 2001 CC it would run in the 3000CC class unless you wanted to take advantage of a rebuild rule on V class engines. :dhorse:
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Maybe I am not tracking with you. If the 3000cc max only allows 2 engines and you are at 2000cc with 4 then I don't see an issue running the 2000cc class with 4 engines. I am not overly familiar with the FIM regs so I cant speak to them.
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I may be wrong but I think the only class that allows 4 engines is the unlimited class. In the m/c classes, what class allows 4 engines in there perspective 2000 cc engine displacement size? :roll:
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Max,
In 2013 I believe there was a rule change in special construction.
7.G allows "two or more engines".
I hope this helps.
Don
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I just got to my rule book.
For special construction (A or APS) refer to rule 7.G.9: A maximum of 4 engines of unlimited displacement are permitted.
For streamliner (S) refer to rule 7.H.18: any combination of motorcycle engines is permitted. No more than 4 engines are permitted. Maximum total engine displacement is unlimited.
The unlimited part in those rules means it can add up to whatever you want. If the total is 2000cc you run on the 2000cc class, if you have 4 125cc motors you run in the 650 class.
SCTA AND FIM rules for the streamliner class's has a 3000 cc max and only two engines are allowed in the top class . So if there is a unlimited class
which allows 4 engines could 4 500 cc Norton's run ?
I don't see that rule anywhere in the SCTA book but maybe it's a FIM rule?
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So you are saying the unlimited refers to the number of engines correct? And not the engine size correct ? :roll:
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Wait, what? No, 4 engines max. They can add up to any displacement you want. The displacement class will be whatever the total displacement adds up to.
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Here's another question to throw into this pile in case you guys aren't wound up enough. In the streamliner M/C deal I quote "For streamliner (S) refer to rule 7.H.18: any combination of motorcycle engines is permitted. No more than 4 engines are permitted. Maximum total engine displacement is unlimited." What actually constitutes a "motorcycle" engine? Once it's in the 'liner it is technically a "motorcycle" engine. If that isn't what is meant, what is? Does a prototype count? If it's a production deal (the rule is WAY vague in it's description) then what actually constitutes production...1, 5, 100, 5000? I really am curious about that rule...
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The only time unlimited class is mentioned is when engine displacement is over 3001 cc correct? :roll:
IT IS A FIM RULE FOR SURE, ACK TWO ENGINES LESS THEN 3000 CC , TRIUMPH TWO ENGINES L ESS THEN 3000CC , and so on all no more then two engines and less then 3000 cc. All going for the title THE WORLDS FASTEST MOTORCYCLE.
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Brad, I'm not sure how that works but I'm pretty sure Bub 7 has a 1 off engine. Then again, I don't know if they do or have ever run under SCTA rules or just FIM.
Max, I'm not sure. Now I am getting confused lol. I would guess that is the FIM rule but I haven't looked that close at them so I don't know.
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Seems like whoever has the fastest motorcycle, has the "Worlds Fastest Motorcycle" With out regard to displacement or class. Not a bike guy, but pretty sure the Bub bike is not SCTA legal. Never was meant to be.
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The BUD streamliner has never been SCTA-BNI compliant. How did the contacts in section 16 of your rule book respond? Why ask this question on this site>
:dhorse:
DW
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The BUB bike never run SCTA, He tried but the bike didn't pass the rules of SCTA. So he made his own venue where he was the boss and changed the AMA and FIM rules a bit I think to run the one off bub liner. You have to give it to BUB, he fought and lost but won in the end , my hats off to those that fight the guys in charge of how much chicken you get at the pick nick.
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I'm trying to figure why you're addressing this question. Are you gonna build it? I thought you were semi-retired. Just stirring like I do?
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I have taken the two engines out of the LAMBKY streamliner removed the supercharger and transmission. I am in the process of building a m/c sit -on. The two Vincent engines will be fuel injected and run fuel. The engines measure a tad under 3000 cc about 2950 cc. I am asking the questions to find out weather the bike could legally qualify for the unlimited class. Not trying to make trouble.
cheers.
MAX
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Max you just answered your question... 2950 is less than 3000 so you would be 3000 A/VF with no fairing and 3000 APS/VF with a fairing.
But then again, I think I heard somebody tell you that before :roll:
:dhorse:
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IT DEFIES LOGIC BUT WHO AM I :? :dhorse: :cheers: :-D Webster got it wrong I guess . Unlimited has a starting point. But I think I said that.
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Last post, SCTA rule book talking to max, sorry max your engine is not big enough to run in the unlimited engine size class.
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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
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HI my friend Sparky, I was the chief engineer on the last three ships I was on while finishing up a 22 year career in the NAVY . I did pull duty every few days as CDO. We would receive coded messages from time to time and I would go to the radio shack and decode with our top secret crepto machine. I managed a wrench or two I would guess when I retired but no crepto machine. So as fare as your last post , I haven't a bloody clue as to what you said. I can only guess it had something to do with your take on my logic.
Cheers,
KANSAS BADMAN Alias Max o. Lambky CWO3 USN RET.
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The real reason I would like to run in the unlimited class is and now was to avoid a tear down to ascertain engine size, what is the ratio of when measured the disqualification is given to a engine displacement being to big for the class compared to the displacement being to small for the class? Does anybody know?
Best
Max
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Max--ROTFLMAO
R olling
O n
T he
F loor
L aughing
M y
A ss
O ff
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:-D
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So you want to run up in engine size -- not run the size that you actually are?
This is routinely done in another association -- setting records that don't reflect what the bike actually is. It gives a bunch of "bragging rights" that many take advantage of -- but, for now, the SCTA doesn't do it. I'm sure you could run an SCTA event configured the way you propose. But if you don't fit the class under their rules, why run under their rules? Do you want them to change their rules for you?
In fact, it may be a long time before there's an SCTA event with a course long enough to run on, any way.
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Stan , question #1 I will run under what ever the rules are, always have always will, question # 2 NO!!!!!!
BEST,
MAX
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Folks in nearly every sanctioning body have found that it makes sense to form displacement windows for vehicles competing in certain types of motorsports.
It helps make sure that the competition is fair to all those competing directly against the other competitors in the same class of vehicle.
NHRA and NASCAR found that it was necessary in order to equalize the competition. What they found was that in certain cases, smaller engine displacements had a distinct and unfair advantage over larger displacement vehicles running the same class. The same thing could, and does apply to any LSR class, thus the need for displacement windows.
I agree with the term unlimited and/or universal, but context is important too, and in this case the term unlimited means what it imply s, any thing goes as long as it's over 3000 ccs.
Rouse
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The rule book shows Unlimited as 3001+cc.
The SCTA requires you to run in your displacement class. If you enter,run and set a record in the 3000 class with this 2950cc bike you will denied the record. You cannot record outside either the upper or lower displacement limits of your chosen class.
DW
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First , the unlimited class has limits according to the rules. Only 4 engines are allowed . Up in Canada there is a fellow that makes V twin drag bike engines that are 250 ci 4 times 250 is 1000 ci. According to the rules that would be legal to run in the unlimited class. SO the window you refer to is 3001 cc which is about 182 ci to 1000 ci, no other window exceeds in the m/c class jumps , more then about 61 ci , the window for unlimited is or could be as much as 800 ci differential , I don't think my 2950 or 178 ci would give the guy with a 1000 ci a unfair advantage. Just my opinion.
Cheers,
Max
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The displacement is referred to as unlimited as you point out. If you run up to four engines which add up to a displacement less than 3000cc you may compete in the A, APS, S or SCS body/chassis classes for that total displacement. You will be classified in the total cc displacement class.
If you are looking for an option to skip tear down I doubt you will find it in either the SCTA or USFRA.
DW
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I have one idea if you want to avoid tear down on the salt. Just throwing it out there so let me know if it's not something that could be done.
Have an inspector come out to you when you have the engines apart at home, have them measure it, and seal it. I have heard the seals are good for a year. If you showed up with presealed engines I would think you would be fine. If you had multiple years I would think you could have an inspector cut the seal and reseal it. Again, not totally sure on that one.
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Are there any motors in your desired style centre plug ? that only need access for the caliper type tool to measure capacity ?
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I'm no expert but in the records section of the rule book they show records for 2000cc, 3000cc and 3001cc+. From what I know the SCTA won't let a smaller displacement engine run in a larger class. So, to me, if you have a displacement of 2950cc you would be required to run in the 3000cc class. If you could open the engines out 26cc each you would be in the unlimited class. Like I said I'm no expert but I don't see any ambiguity in the class displacement rules.
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Just thinking....if Max ran 2950cc worth of big V-twins (vintage) and a vintage (60cc or bigger) small motorcycle engine, the combination would add up to over 3000cc. I don't see anything in the rule book about all the engines continuously driving the rear wheel...or even staying connected during every run.
If someone wanted to get picky about it, that 3rd engine could use a friction drive roller against the rear tire to help get the bike rolling off the line. I think a foot pedal release (with engine kill switch) would keep it from doing anything after the first 10-20 feet, but it would absolutely be part of the powertrain used for his runs. A little, old time, two-stroke would be just right for the job!
Just thinking..... :wink:
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Jim, if we do get on the salt and at the same time, please stop by the Treit and Davenport circus tent pit area.
FREUD
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JimL. Wasn't there a streamliner that turned up at El Mirage with an engine in a trailer so it could run in a bigger class. I don't remember the detail but I think the fan was busy with all that hit it,
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Rick Yacoucci In the Neb 2 car had the Tag Engine that didn't run.In order to move up into the 3 liter class. They let that slide, but said no more. So nice thought guy. But you are to late.
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If the engine runs and was made to drive the rear wheel , I feel it would be legal, no reason it wouldn't be. Now all I have to do is find a 100 cc vintage 4 stroke engine figure out where to put it and how to hook it up. So many rules have made it to the rule book to protect certain class's for instance a push rod has to be so long to be a push rod. The Vincent's fought that one and finally won.
Cheers,
Max
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Correct, Max, not a dummy engine but part of the powertrain to assist with the launch. It seems to me that this would really help some of the heavy, long bikes. We cannot push them off with the cars and the gears needed to launch cannot be done on most of our budgets. These situations are a problem, and all the work done on EZ Hook is the proof of that fact.
I was there in line in '69 when Bob Leppan tried to launch his liner with a single 750 triple and the correct top-speed gear choice. It smoked the clutch in 1st gear despite being towed off with the van. This really is an age old problem for bikes.
On my little engined (but heavy) bike we had been pushing each other off by hand. We were sometimes close to falling down leaving the line because I was launching in a "1st gear" that runs out to about 85 mph. That is almost as fast as the original bikes top speed was in 5th gear. With only 680 cc in a 750cc pushrod class I could not go faster because I would never see "175 in the 1/4" no matter what I did (it was over 165 at the 3 and still accelerating.) I wish I would have thought out this boost-engine idea before now, but the bike is done with.
If the salt doesnt start getting longer you are all going to need more efficient launch and acceleration to be able to continue bumping records.
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Following the Rick Yacoucci experience at El Mirage the highlighte sentence was added to the rule book the following year. 2015 rule book, 2.A ENGINES, page 18:
Any internal combustion engine using either a two-stroke or four-stroke Otto cycle or Diesel cycle may run in any
category, except for Vintage Engine classes, see 2.A.1, hereinafter described. In XF, XO, XXF, XXO, V4 and V4F
classes, non-production engines or after-market blocks (even though they accept production crankshafts, cams and
cylinder heads) may not be used. All other engines that transmit the power through the wheels only may run in Ω class. Only Streamliners and Unlimited Diesel Trucks may use more than one engine at the same time. For any engine to be considered for cubic inch (or cc) requirements, the engine shall have contributed to the propulsion of the vehicle. Reaction propulsion engines are prohibited."
I can see from the conversation that some wordsmithing, such as - for the entire run, should be added. This because of the disconnect comment from JimL.
DW
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Reread my post. The highlight did not take, please notice the next to last sentence beginning with "For any engine ..."
Thanks,
DW
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Perhaps a small engine driving a supercharger that feeds into the main engine would count
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So are you saying that a piston that is a part of the said cc of the bike must contribute power for the entire run ? What if a hole appears in its crown half way through the run and delivers no more power , would this be a disqualifying factor?
CHEERS,
Max
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Yes Max, that would disqualify the run, much the same as tossing a blower belt take the vehicle from blower class to unblown class after the run begins.
Really?
DW
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Rich,
Page 64, 2015 rule book:
4.FF SUPERCHARGED:
For purposes of classification, Blown (supercharged) will be an artificially-aspirated engine with a mechanically-driven supercharger and/or exhaust-driven turbocharger powered by the primary engine. The supercharger or turbocharger must pressurize the intake system above atmospheric
pressure.
This will also include systems such as turbo-compounding. All other engines (normally-aspirated) will be classified as Unblown.
You have read the entire rule book,
DW
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So next question, if you shut off before the timing traps and you coast thru the timed traps , you would receive a timing slip BUT BY YOUR WORDS NO BLOWER TURNING -------- :? this is getting silly and as SPOCK use to say STAR T " THAT IS NOT LOGICAL"
CHEERS,
Max
How many records have been set with broken engines, a lot I would guess.
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Aren't the engines still subject to measurement to ensure they meet the requirement ...ie exceed the next lower class limit ?
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OK Kids, lets stop getting too crazy with the what ifs...
The rule book says multiple engines makes you an A bike... displacement, aspiration and fairing determine your class... same as forever...
Yes Max, lots of records get set blowing up something in a motor.... as long as it can be measured and certified and the averages are more than the old record then a new record is set. It used the entire displacement of the motor or blower to get it there at some point.
So the original question has been confirmed as answered... unlimited is a displacement class, just like AA in cars... larger than the largest listed displacement class.... Has to measure the correct size to run in that class.... Just like all the other classes
time to stop :dhorse:
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HMMM, LETS see , you cant run in the next class for the reason a smaller size engine might have a higher volumetric efficiency then the engines in the next window of displacement size . But the high volumetric efficiency engine could be bored or stroked increasing the HP even more and if the engine size reached the next window engine size, that's ok. Am I the only one having a problem getting my head around this?
Cheers
MAX
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YES SIR MR STAINLESS :cheers:
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HMMM, LETS see , you cant run in the next class for the reason a smaller size engine might have a higher volumetric efficiency then the engines in the next window of displacement size . But the high volumetric efficiency engine could be bored or stroked increasing the HP even more and if the engine size reached the next window engine size, that's ok. Am I the only one having a problem getting my head around this?
Cheers
MAX
Probably :-D That is the way LSR racing works.... if you are faster than the other entrants you win... if my 1000 cc Suzuki is faster than your 3000 cc Vincent would you want it in your class?
There are organizations that take you at your word... on engine size... but in Southern California... they make you prove it
still :dhorse:
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You said sTop talking Lambky and then post a question to me . :? :dhorse: :cheers:
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Answer , it wont be :x :cheers:
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Max....figured out a wide ratio method for a small engine to jump you off the line, but would only add a couple HP at top end speeds because the overdriving would not be as efficient. PM sent.