Proposed rule change question?

[1212FBGS]

you can absolutely run a car motor in a bike....
kent

[mkilger]

KENT I may have a motor for you, twin turbo big block chevy, I think we can make it fit in your bike liner. lets go for it. 

[Sumner]

Just talking "GT" the rules are a little un-clear as under part of 5.E.3 p.75:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Engine swaps are permitted as long as they are of the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Notice the use of the words "same manufacturer".

Now back in the "Definitions Section" of the rule book that Sparky referred to 4.N says:

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Engine Swap:

An engine swap is defined as the use of an engine from an engine design family that was not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a given vehicle year is used.

An engine design family is defined as engines which are made of the same basic material, have the same bore center, crankshaft supports, deck height, cam location, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc.  All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Notice here the words "engine design family".  If the GT engine swaps follow this "design family" rule then the bike motors would not be allowed in GT.  If by the use of the words "same manufacture" they mean to loosen up on the "design family" restrictions then maybe a bike motor could be used.

Remember we are talking here about the GT section of production and it is written different than the "general" production rules.

Dan can you give us some thoughts on the subject?

c ya,

Sum

[willieworld]

you cannot run a car engine in a motorcycle class .........except in ug and uf streamliner and it has to be a otto cycle engine ---unless you run for time only   --if im wrong  SHOW ME ---willie buchta

[LSR M5]

Just talking "GT" the rules are a little un-clear as under part of 5.E.3 p.75:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Engine swaps are permitted as long as they are of the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Notice the use of the words "same manufacturer".

Now back in the "Definitions Section" of the rule book that Sparky referred to 4.N says:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Engine Swap:

An engine swap is defined as the use of an engine from an engine design family that was not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a given vehicle year is used.

An engine design family is defined as engines which are made of the same basic material, have the same bore center, crankshaft supports, deck height, cam location, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc.  All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Notice here the words "engine design family".  If the GT engine swaps follow this "design family" rule then the bike motors would not be allowed in GT.  If by the use of the words "same manufacture" they mean to loosen up on the "design family" restrictions then maybe a bike motor could be used.

Remember we are talking here about the GT section of production and it is written different than the "general" production rules.

EXACTLY. This is why I keep revisiting this question. I think that in GT, this means it's legal to use a motorcycle engine in a car as long as it's from the same manufacturer. Reading that line again, I do not believe that GT requires an engine to be in the same "design family." Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche seems clear enough that even with the further definition of what an engine swap is, there is no further requirement other than it needs to be mounted in the same configuration (ie no front engine to mid engine swaps) as stock, and be the same manufacturer.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Well, if you study the overall layout of the rule section, 5.E Production Category defines the following subcategories -

5.E.1 PRO
5.E.2 PS
5.E.3 BGT, GT
5.E.4 PP
5.E.5 P/MP

The overarching definition for all 5 categories appears to be, as stated in 5.E -

"This category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles, which may be purchased from any automobile dealer"

The paragraph further states -

"The engine used must have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from any automobile dealer".

Specifically, with regard to 5.E.3 BGT/GT, the final paragraph states -

"Rules of this class will be strictly enforced to ensure that cars entered herein are typical of street machines which can be purchased from an automobile dealer".

This is why I stepped back from building a Honda (bike) powered del Sol, because I've never typically seen one with a 1 litre CBR engine in it. 
 

[LSR M5]

The paragraph further states -

"The engine used must have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from any automobile dealer".

This certainly applies for the other production classes because there is no contradictory statement within the subheadings. However, it is my interpretation of the rule that the following statement supersedes the above:

5.E.3 "Engine swaps are permitted, as long as they are of the same manufacturer (eg., Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche, etc.)."

As the other categories specifically outlaw engine swaps, it follows that the engine used must have been available in that vehicle from the dealer. However, as GT permits engine swaps, it is my position that the engine swap of same manufacturer can be of any type, not necessarily originally available in that vehicle.

Comments?

[maguromic]

M5, I read the rule the same way as you do.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Below is a quote from one of the members of the rules committee who I corresponded with over a year ago regarding running a backdated engine in a late model Midget -

"You can run different and older engines in a
rubber-bumper car just as long as they were
manufactured to run in an MG car, ie- TC, TD, TF, A,
B, C, Midget MK1-MK4 etc."

If you would like to PM me, I will forward you his e-mail address. 

Quite honestly, I'd like to have it cleared up, too. 

There are good arguments on both sides of the issue.  The GT class doesn't see a lot of competitors, especially in the smaller displacements, and opening it up to wider engine swap possibilities, while they might hurt me personally, could draw more interest to the class. 

Conversely, there is a strong sense of tradition in this race form, most obviously evident in the vintage classes. 

[LSR M5]

Here's my correspondence with the rules committee from August:

My message: (emphasis added for this post) "Is a Honda motorcycle engine in a Honda car a legal engine swap in classes that contain this language: 'Engine swaps are permitted, as long as they are of the same manufacturer (eg., Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche, etc.).'"

The response I received: "At this time there is no restriction on putting a motorcycle engine in an automobile."

Clear as mud.

[RichFox]

If you accept an engine manufactured by Honda Motorcycle division for a car as not being an engine swap in GT, woundn't it follow that an engine manufactured by GM for one division would be legal in any other division? Say a 572 in a Pontiac Solest the Saturn roadster?

[LSR M5]

If you accept an engine manufactured by Honda Motorcycle division for a car as not being an engine swap in GT, woundn't it follow that an engine manufactured by GM for one division would be legal in any other division? Say a 572 in a Pontiac Del Sol or the Saturn roadster?

It's not that it's not an engine swap. It certainly is. It is just an allowed engine swap. At least that's my reading of it.

[dwarner]

Page 70
"The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer."

Page 72 & 74
"Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and a starter capable of starting the engine may be used so long as the original running gear design is retained."

The first sentence is from the 2008 rulebook. The section is the overall rules for the five Production Category classes. The second sentence is from the same book, underlines mine, covers both the Production class and the GT class. Reference is made back to these two classes in the PS, PP and MPP classes.

The way I see it is that a motorcycle engine into a car is NOT allowed based on the ANY automobile dealer caveat. If you could buy a motorcycle engine from the automobile dealer can the "original running gear design" be retained?

If you can provide documenatation to fulfill the requirements of these rules then you may have a chance to create a successful build.

DW

[LSR M5]

Page 70
"The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer."

Dan, while I see yours and others' point here, the way this sentence is structures causes some trouble determining what applies to GT as opposed to all other production classes. Wouldn't the above preclude the allowance for engine swaps in GT? The definition of an engine swap essentially is that it wasn't originally available in that model, am I correct?

Page 72 & 74
"Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and a starter capable of starting the engine may be used so long as the original running gear design is retained."

The first sentence is from the 2008 rulebook. The section is the overall rules for the five Production Category classes. The second sentence is from the same book, underlines mine, covers both the Production class and the GT class. Reference is made back to these two classes in the PS, PP and MPP classes.

The way I see it is that a motorcycle engine into a car is NOT allowed based on the ANY automobile dealer caveat. If you could buy a motorcycle engine from the automobile dealer can the "original running gear design" be retained?

If you can provide documenatation to fulfill the requirements of these rules then you may have a chance to create a successful build.

DW

What if a car transaxle was used? Fair enough if they would exclude the use of the bike's transmission.

I appreciate everyone's help in this question.

[dwarner]

"Wouldn't the above preclude the allowance for engine swaps in GT? The definition of an engine swap essentially is that it wasn't originally available in that model, am I correct?"

I guess I'm missing your point here. Are you saying that I can go to my local Honda automobile showroom and buy a CBR engine?

The rules are structured for GT class so that you can run a Chevy 427 in a Corvette body that did not have this engine available as an option. The rule is unique to GT class.

If your secret project is something like a Suzuki Samari with a Hayabusa engine I would consider a well written letter and try sending to rulebookinfo@scta-bni.org again. If it was me I would not cut pipe until I had a firm answer.

DW