Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: HNORD on March 21, 2022, 04:14:46 PM
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Just some curious question.
( I change or limited the question )
I cant see in the rule book a flathead NA on gas ( 305 cu in ) can be in the D/GR class or not.
I do note in that class the body must retain std but a longer wheelbase is Ok as moved driver, belly pan Ok, A-Ford grille size.
I guess no blower is allowed but how about electronic fuel injection in the GR glass ?
How fast has a FH went less blower and on pump gas and with any fuel system on ( any body/class type chassie but not a streamliner )
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Looks like XF/GR, unblown Flathead, is in the 165 to 195MPH range depending on modifications. You cannot run a Flathead in class D, there are vintage engine classes for roadsters specifically.
DW
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Ok,
So if run a FH one can has the the GR type of chassie/rules but engine will be rated as XF ( guess XF means a FH run on pump gas )
Or, is FH just in less modificated body chassies ?
But if at GR class and a FH, is electronic fuel injection allowed ?
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You're asking outright six completely different very complex questions. None of us can quote offhand completely accurately any of them. We all happen to need the Rule Book's correct quote, and I suspect that you have not read it carefully. Even when you do, you'll have questions to clarify the meanings, but for now, you're way away from having anyone answer them with complete verisimilitude. This is related only to the SCTA Rule Book, the main one we use when preparing for their events. Even someone who has been known to add words to a Rule when quoted probably cannot possibly know why a flathead V-8 couldn't run in D Class. But if one were seeking an SCTA record, that would be almost impossible in the D/Gas Roadster class with one.
Get a Rule Book, read it 3 times and please report back.
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I found the Australian rule online as I read several times.
I cant see why a FH cant get in D category GR.
I might missed it.
But my main question was - are a FH allowed in GR class and can one use electronic FI.
I do read no FI in vintage class.
I’m new in landspeed so its always just good to humble ask.
I do has 30 years experiance of NHRA stock eliminator to read those rules.
And Yes I know ’some’ rules is hard to answer but some are more easy.
-Just need a little help.
Or can I call a tech or mail tech ?
I did try mail John at tech but the mail did come back.
I’m curious on this racing, so for now just questions.
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You're asking outright six completely different very complex questions. None of us can quote offhand completely accurately any of them. We all happen to need the Rule Book's correct quote, and I suspect that you have not read it carefully. Even when you do, you'll have questions to clarify the meanings, but for now, you're way away from having anyone answer them with complete verisimilitude. This is related only to the SCTA Rule Book, the main one we use when preparing for their events. Even someone who has been known to add words to a Rule when quoted probably cannot possibly know why a flathead V-8 couldn't run in D Class. But if one were seeking an SCTA record, that would be almost impossible in the D/Gas Roadster class with one.
Get a Rule Book, read it 3 times and please report back.
Speedweek 2021 I wanted to put a flathead vintage engine class based on size in the D class my request was denied. Our record with the flathead is faster than the current D sized class record. Our top speed was just over 219 with the vintage engine.
Ronnieroadster
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Looks like XF/GR, unblown Flathead, is in the 165 to 195MPH range depending on modifications. You cannot run a Flathead in class D, there are vintage engine classes for roadsters specifically.
DW
If a competitor enters a French flathead block {not legal in vintage engine class} that's a D size then it must be legal to run D class would it not?
Ronnieroadster
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Next time use a French block. Whoops -- just saw I was 2 minutes late with this!
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Just because it's not legal for one class doesn't automatically make it legal for the other. :dhorse:
Wayno
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There you go!
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Where in the rule book can one read that a FH cant be at D category.
Has organisation own rules outside the rule book ?
I can read for Ford FH its are a vintage class and more street roadsters body.
But if not in D/GR ( US block ) can it be done by run FX/GR.
Is that correct ?
Does that mean chassie will be at GR rules but engine vintage and on gas, no blower no electronic fuel injection.
Ronnie.
Thats a Fast FH at 219.
You was in a class rear engine ( not GR ) and came with a vintage rule FH ( on gas, use a blower but no electronic FI ) and was denied as a D category.
On what course was it wrong according to rule book.
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SCTA Rule Book says...
1.B CLASSIFICATION:
It is the responsibility of the owner and/or driver to enter a vehicle in its proper class. However, a vehicle is subject to class verification by the SCTA Contest Board at any
time. THE SCTA CONTEST BOARD WILL NOT RECLASSIFY
A VEHICLE ENTERED IN THE WRONG CLASS. ALL VEHICLES WILL RUN ONLY IN THE LOWEST PRIMARY CLASS/
CATEGORY FOR WHICH THEY ARE LEGAL. IF A VEHICLE
IS NOT LEGAL FOR A SPECIFIC CLASS, IT MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE LEGAL FOR ANOTHER CLASS. THE VEHICLE
SHALL MEET ALL CLASS REQUIREMENTS TO BE LEGAL FOR
COMPETITION. ONCE A VEHICLE HAS LEFT THE STARTING
LINE, THE ENTRY NAME AND CLASSIFICATION INFORMATION WILL NOT BE CHANGED.
If an appropriate class exists, a vehicle shall run in that
class. Any vehicle which is not legal for any class, but meets
all technical regulations, may be allowed to run for "Time
Only".
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Thank's.
Yes I understand it, its up to board.
But I guess I can use a USA made FH in XF/GR class and go max 325 cu in and no blower, no electronic fuel injection.
Is that correct ?
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On body modifications ( GR class )
If use a 29 roadster, can one remove firewall section infront of window ?
I seen pictures when a new hood is made ( slimmer and start at front window of body )
But I saw on Larry Erickson D/GR roadster he still had the cowld section under the new made hood.
I found this for the GR body on the Australian rules ( guess its the same as the US )
One more question ; I read that a belly pan is not allowed in GR class, in what roadster class is that allowed in ?
5.B.2 Fuel-Gas Roadster - /BFR, /FR, /BGR, /GR
The body at the original windshield line may be re-contoured to a flatter configuration, so long as the body contour is not lower than the top of the doors and the distance between the bottom of the frame and body contour, measured at the original windshield line, is not less than 71.76 cm (28-1/4 in.). Flat panels may cover grille openings. Door hinges, windshield posts, filler caps, and brackets may be removed. The configuration of the bodywork between the original windshield line and the grille shell is optional, as long as the overall length of the car, from the front of the grille shell to the rear of the body, with any grille shell, is no greater than 363.22 cm (143 in.)
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OK... where are you going to race? If at Bonneville, you need to get the SCTA rulebook. The rules are similar but I wouldn't start a project without a rulebook.
Just because a picture shows something does not mean it is legal... the only time your vehicle is inspected for class certification is if you get in record impound. The tech inspectors are safety inspectors, they may tell you something on your vehicle is not class legal, but generally not....
Get a rulebook, even if it is a year old there are very few changes in roadster legal bodys.
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Of course.
I did try e-mail but both that and tech and mail is coming back.
As I said, this is just humble questions for now.
I'm from Sweden but had race in USA before, in NHRA stock.
Just got the idea to reaseach to get into a project on a FH NA roadster.
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In my OP I had several question regards GR class and use the flathead.
Mayby this held some lights for others.
I did talk to tech.
First, I can run at Bonneville as a Swede.
The webside is down so it can be any rule book order ( just now )
I can run category D if I like, but maybe better is to run XF.
On firewall/cowld I don’t need that.
Wheelbase can be max around 117” ( depending on wheels ) and max chassie/body lenghts is 143”.
Engine can be moved max 25% from wheelbase from king pins to sparklug Nr1.
Rear wheels can max go behind body at 1”.
Bellypan is a NO in GR class but one can make a belly under frame from firewall location to 10” in front of rear axle centre.
So that was good info.
I calculated at 6600 RPM and 1;1 in transmission and 2.75 at rear and 28” tall tires it’s 200 MPH.
Well on a stock block US made FH just under 300 cu;in, and NA on gas and a A-Ford grille at a DA around 7.000 - it shore will not be easy...
Even if all low friction parts aviable is used I need maybe ++350 HP on rearwheel at sealeval chassie dyno.
Anyway, I did order 29 roadster body parts today.
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"Wheelbase can be max around 117? ( depending on wheels )"
Wheelbase has nothing to do with tire diameter. It's center axle to center axle.
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I think we needed about 600-700 HP to break 200 with this similar Gas (Street) Roadster. That's quite a challenge with a flathead . . .
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I might be wrong here on the wheelbase, but max lenghts of body in GR class is = 143".
If one use ex 28" wheels front and back.
I got that info rear of wheels can not go more out than 1" of body.
-So a good point, is the 143" from body or end of wheels, as that sett the 'wheelbase'.
My guess it can be max around 115-117", or ?
Yes it take allot of power to go 200 MPH in a gas roadster but not 700, but air is thin and no blower make it maybe impossible.
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Believe it or not, there is no limit to wheel base in the gas roadster class. Rear axle location has a rule but you can huck the front axle as far out as you want to go. Now on the other hand, modified roadsters do have a wheel base limit, go figure. :dhorse:
Also we are very similar to Stan Back as far as power plant, we made 702HP on a chassis dyno and our best was only 213mph
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Ok but there is a total lenghts, right at 143", so is that on body or end of tires.
Yes 200 MPH is hard and maybe impossible, math is one hing hardcore power another.
In this thread 'Ronnieroadster' told he made a record pass at 219 MPH with his blown gas FH, but that was a lakester - but I hardly think he made near at 6-700 HP on the rear.
But shore he has a fast car and that one cut air better, but he did a awsome work !
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Ok, if there are no wheelbase rule in GR.
Say one use ex 115.5” and std 29 roadster has it at 103.5”, so that’s 12” longer.
One can move engine back 25% of wheelbase from wheel axle to sparkplug Nr1.
So that means near 29” back.
But as wheelbase is 12” longer the frame get longer but one can remove the cowld.
29” minus 12” is = 17” and my guess the cowld is around that lenghts so engine will be near the new firewall, if I get this correct.
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As said before, get your rule book and read it 3 times. If we were to build a new roadster and wanted to keep up with the really fast guys, we would build it long and low! Horse power only pushes you so fast and then comes the arrow brick wall.
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Until I get the book I can humble ask, and new into landspeed I might even ask after I get the 'book' some.
I know some thing I ask might se plain stuped.
After all it's a forum and thread here is on rules ( then one can hope on help )
As I talked to tech yesterday and they said it was not free wheelbase in gas roadsters.
( of course I might got that wrong )
It is not the best idea to build a car by read the rule book in a foreign language and not ask anyone and get to Bonneville from Sweden and end upp most is wrong.
Convert words as in a rule book is not the best idea aswell.
I do has a tech guy I can ask now.
But I see it as a learning curve and it's a forum.
-How much effect a longer wheelbase gas roadster with a A-Ford grille vs a belly lakesters on air/HP when we are at around 200 MPH.
Do the lakester need 1-2-300 HP less vs the air situation, or how does it works out there.
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Most lakesters are more streamlined than most roadsters. Most lakesters require less horsepower than most roadsters to go the same speed.
Almost all lakesters (and roadsters) differ quite a bit from each other and don't share aero figures. Each and every one is different, too. Each is built with the ideas of the individual builder. Some may stay with traditional styles because of choice and the rules. Others try innovation that always doesn't work.
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Yes, if one get 100 MPH instead of the idea of 200 then a big learning curve will start.
I understand there are many way to race, just has fun, has a cool old style look or try go as fast one can vs own experiance, time and money.
It don?t need much error until one dont get the idea of the speed in mind.
But I guess that is a part of it.
I guess I set the idea of a 115-117? wheelbase.
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HNORD, have you been to Bonneville? I know you are from Sweden and English is not your primary language.... but I recommend a longer build schedule... get and read your rulebook, looking at the classes and rules you think you want to build for.... then attend at least 1 race. Talk to people running in the class you are thinking about. Look at the cars... there are a lot to look at... take notes on the ideas you like... but pay attention to the ones you don't like as well.
Roadsters have lots of rules... beyond safety
Lakesters have few rules... beyond safety
Decide the path you want to take, go home and start drawing and building.
Like you said, Sweden is a long way to go... It'll be longer if you can't race
Good luck with the project... ask questions here... some of the answers will be helpful...
Occasionally we forget there are folks all over the world that want to do this :cheers:
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HNORD, have you been to Bonneville? I know you are from Sweden and English is not your primary language.... but I recommend a longer build schedule... get and read your rulebook, looking at the classes and rules you think you want to build for.... then attend at least 1 race. Talk to people running in the class you are thinking about. Look at the cars... there are a lot to look at... take notes on the ideas you like... but pay attention to the ones you don't like as well.
Roadsters have lots of rules... beyond safety
Lakesters have few rules... beyond safety
Decide the path you want to take, go home and start drawing and building.
Like you said, Sweden is a long way to go... It'll be longer if you can't race
Good luck with the project... ask questions here... some of the answers will be helpful...
Occasionally we forget there are folks all over the world that want to do this :cheers:
Good advice!
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-I started the thread as a 'qurious' and humble question only.
Bonneville this summer sounds nice but not yet planned.
I has try get the rulebook but as recently heard it was a web side issue, but in big I read the Australian rule book and try to ask, but it will be on order.
Only time I went true Boneville was in a rental car I think 1995 after World Finals at Pomona in October, so that was as close I been to the salts.
I like schew on the flathead and I like it less a blower and on gas, and I saw Larry Ericsson's roadster it had a number GR.
As I has been working with engine in pro since the 80's, so I'm not new on engines and racing and my Hemi Cuda in A/SA went to be as fast as the fastest in USA.
I has actually a brand new Hemi for it but I like to do something new.
The roadster I think it's my concept and not a lakester or a streamliner or a traditional street roadster or a MC or a SAAB etc so a GR roadster do fit my ideas.
Concept started as I has been doing dragracing in stock eliminator ( allot of rules and limitation as I like ) for many years and I was get into build a 40's style hot-rod coupe, but my mechanical head started almost direct and that got a conflict in a street 'hot'rod'.
I got so far to a chassie and a 46 engine and was close get a 1932 3W Henry body in LA but jumped off.
I did like build it traditionally and no new stuff but it's complicated and this old rare stuff is no made for throttle hard 2022 ( but they shore is cool to look at )
So right now I'll just try learn landspeed ( my wallet has not yet got smaller so I'll just read, learn )
Ok, I has now actually bought a new 29 roadster body from Brockville and has the idea of the frame, transmission, rearend etc.
But for now, just ideas.
Concerns right now is learn the rules and shew into the engine project as that is my base.
It's my own work and if no racing I can use the roadster on the 32 frame.
But if and when I go over for racing I shore like to has booth my foot steady regards how I did build the car vs rules.
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OK... fair enough... since you don't have a hard timeline you can get a rulebook ordered as soon as they are available.
You're a car guy, so you need to go to the races at Bonneville... come on out and look over the cars... talk to folks... learn the ropes.
That is the best way to figure it out.
See ya on the salt :cheers: 8-)
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#12 ... Yes