Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Rex Schimmer on August 24, 2005, 10:30:27 PM
-
Looking through the 2005 rule book, and I am sure that it has been this way for a number of years, I see the "correction factor" for the Wankel engine is 3X the "sweep volume" . This means that a Mazda 12A motor with about 1100 cc's of sweep volume would be equated to a recip engine of 3.3 liters. Well I can tell you that the most you will ever get from a normally asperated 12A with periferal ports, fuel injection and all the other trick parts is less than 300 hp at 10,000 and I have ran them on 20% nitro and never made more that 315 and any good 3.3 piston engine will make 400+ in a heart beat! and a really god one will make 600! (And, yes I know that the F1 guys are getting over 900 from 3 liters but I just can't afford the $500,000 price tag.)I would think that the correction factor should really be 2 or 2.5 at the most.
I know they are loud but they are simple and will run 10,000 rpm for 24 hours. If the correction factor was more realistic you might see some more of these great little engines on the salt.
Rex
-
If you compare the displacement in terms of quantity of air pumped per crankshaft revolution, the multiplier should be 2x.
All the more credit to Racing Beat and the rotary engine that their records still stand, one since 1978 8)
-
The 3x factor came from the NHRA rulebook in force at the time. If the 3x factor is so restrictive why are there records in the book, one at least 27 years old, that have not been beaten?
Seems an easy record to me if I were inclined to race something in that displacement class.
Warner
-
Looking at the 2002 and the 2005 rule books from the ECTA I see that some time between 2003 and 2005 the ECTA rotary factor was changed from 3x to 2.3x. So by the 2005 ECTA Rules it appears that a 1308cc 13B Mazda would factor out to 3008.4 cc. That puts it in the top of the F class. Under SCTA it would be in the E class.
I recall some discussion here a while back (maybe it was Warner) that when an engine measures between the top of a class and the botton of the next class (in this case between 3.00 litre and 3.01 litre) that it goes in the lower class.
If the factor isn't changed by SCTA, maybe the solution could be to form a new class (are you on line JackD?) Something like Rear Engine Rotary Powered Classic Hatchback. (El-Caminos may run this class with tailgate up) (:>)
-
I have an 86 RX-7 that I was going to put my Buick V-6 stuff into. It is more slippery than my Monza, I mean Buick
Can I help ? Where do you need me ?
Lets race. Can I get one of those "WORLD RECORD" things ?
I have D, E ,and F sizes, but if the rotary will do it, that would be more fun in production at least to start.
Actually I have a Red one and a White one. Great, I can run 2 classes and make them sound like an outboard..
OH BOY !!!
In memory of Don Sherman
-
HAHA you guys are so funny. I wanna get me some more of those ?world record things? LOL. Littleliner you crack me up who really gives any credibility to the ECTA? Especially since they don?t even enforce their rules. You can take whatever you want there, classify it whatever you want, and set a record for the price of an entry. Sounds perfect for a rotary. Too bad there so far away, I?d have me a bunch more of those ?world record things?. You can bet your butt the SCTA wont change a rule just because the ECTA did. LOL?.LOL?.
-
"When things get tough, the tough get going"
"Theoretical records are set by theoretical racers"
BYE YALL.
-
How many records have you set with the ECTA Kent?
Do you know why we changed the factor?
Do you know what we call our records?
Have you read or do you own one of our rule books?
Do you know if the SCTA has ever followed our lead on anything Kent?
You seem to have a fair grasp of when to apologize... so here you go... yet another opportunity to excel.
-
OOOPS looks like I hit another nerve. No Keith I?ve never been there. I have seen the ECTA rules IMO they kind of follow a creatable organization?s rules. Nope never been there, don?t have any records there although by the looks of it I don?t think any one would have a problem setting a record there. You ask ?do I know what you call your records?? By the ECTA home page my guess would be ?A RECORD!? Whatever you call them I think it?s kind of like kids AYSO soccer ?everyone plays? ya know. I mean come on, how creatable is it when a guy can take a production 125 and set a 125,175, 250, 350, 400, 500, 650, 750,and 1000cc records all with the same bike!!!! Look at your records it?s true! That crap wouldn?t happen here. Don?t get me started about the ecta streamliner records. Come on, have ya guys ever had a bike liner ever run? Your organization really down plays and discredits everyone who builds a legitimate land speed machine. Congrats on your B-ville record, they are records to be proud of.
Kent
-
Doing my best Rodney King impersonation: "Can't we all just get along?"
My mommy used to say if you don't got something nice to say, don't say anything at all. After reading this thread, I have to say she was probably right.
-
I mean come on, how creatable is it when a guy can take a production 125 and set a 125,175, 250, 350, 400, 500, 650, 750,and 1000cc records all with the same bike!!!! Look at your records it?s true! That crap wouldn?t happen here.
AHEM. I happen to be "that guy." And I am not insulted
or upset that you use me as an example of what, in
your opinion, is wrong with the ECTA. But you should be
careful about presenting your unfounded opinions as fact.
You're just flat out wrong to say because ECTA has allowed
"running up" in class or has a different conversion factor for
rotaries, that they don't enforce their own rules. They ARE
their rules. You may not like it, but that does not make it wrong.
I don't like the DH in baseball. But it is the rule. It doesn't
make the whole organization somehow inferior. Just different.
I don't want to get into the propriety of being allowed to
run-up in class all over again, since it's been kicked to death
here, but I don't consider it "crap." It's just a slight difference
in philosophy, as to whether engine sizes ought to be
brackets or ceilings. If a 999cc bike (or car) can run faster
than a 1001cc machine, why would you want to purposefully
exclude the smaller one from taking a record in the next
higher class if it can genuinely run faster? The line is
arbitrary to begin with. IMHO, not allowing running up
in class dilutes the record. Just my opinion, however.
And I am not going to attack the whole SCTA because
they don't agree with me. <G>
And, no, I don't think my 1000cc production record will
last for long. As soon as someone with a larger bike
comes along, it'll be gone. But now they've got something
to shoot at. The ECTA is a relatively young organization
and all the "soft" records will work themselves out in due
time.
I, for one, think you owe the ECTA and its officials an apology.
But, that's just another opinion.
Mark
-
I, for one, think you owe the ECTA and its officials an apology.
But, that's just another opinion.
Mark
Although these are all just opinions, as you state Mark, at least yours and most others are knowledgable opinions.
HAHA you guys are so funny. I wanna get me some more of those ?world record things? LOL. Littleliner you crack me up who really gives any credibility to the ECTA? Especially since they don?t even enforce their rules. You can take whatever you want there, classify it whatever you want, and set a record for the price of an entry. Sounds perfect for a rotary. Too bad there so far away, I?d have me a bunch more of those ?world record things?. You can bet your butt the SCTA wont change a rule just because the ECTA did. LOL?.LOL?.
My mommy used to say if you don't got something nice to say, don't say anything at all. After reading this thread, I have to say she was probably right.
I believe your mom was correct also John, but am sorry to say I never even listened to my mom well. You would think by what my dad put me thru I would know better then to do what I'm about to do though, but appearantly not. :wink:
With that said.. 1212FBGS, I don't have a problem with sarcasm, misconceptions, ignorance, speculations or opinions being voiced... but(by reading your first statement), you couldn't seem to seperate those at all. You opened with sarcasm and closed with ignorance.. and it shows alot.
Todd Dross
-
Bla, Bla, Bla (sarcasm) so mark........ Would you go down to your local bike shop or send a press release to a magazine and say "I'm proud to announce I set a 1000cc world record at 100mph"???? That’s why I think what you did and what others in the ECTA are aloud to do discredits what hard working land speed racers do. That’s why I don’t give them any credibility. Let me ask ya another question..... nah forget it. Yeh I'm stirring up the bee's nest again but for every ECTA guy I piss off I know there is a dozen SCTA guys who feel the same way.
-
Many in the SCTA are also upset with "World Record" designation given to an entry that can go 100mph with a combination that should go 200mph.
It is club racing and the rules serve and meet the needs and demands of the membership and the event.
Did I read around here someplace that it will take a couple of hundred years to fill the 0 minimums at SCTA. I guess I could examine the record rate and look at the open classes. While I would get a headache for sure, I would want to be know before I stepped in it.
This is fun.
What else ya got ?
-
For a while I thought someone had slipped into FIA knocking mode yet again ........ then I saw that it was a 'local' dispute between two sides of the same Country (and the Europeans were not involved).
:D
Perhaps I should not get involved with something that does not affect me (i haven't got a rotary motor) - but we all have our opinions and Jon gives us this place to share them.
Rotary equivalences have taxed most, if not all, motor racing organisations - those that saw the Wankel as a power threat to the 'trusty american iron V8' went to an extreme position based on ..... well I do not know what science (if any was used). Others have used a more practical approach and reached a better equivalency factor.
A rule difference between SCTA/BNI and ECTA just shows me that the racing organisations are of different eras. Its up to the individual racer to decide which set of rules, or place on the planet, that they wish to compete at.
I think Kent R might suffer from 'indignation meltdown' if the plans for "World Short Course" land speed records do come to fruition in 2006 or 2007. When ECTA and other racing organisations around the world could if they wish genuinely place "World" at the top of a timing certificate and the world encompasses many Nations and a single rule book developed by racers using different body shaped vehicles.
(JackD - plenty to go at here ........)
-
His English to American translation was not bad.
The translation into performance is still a problem for some.
"Tradition unhampered by progress."
The mile thing is very doable and should be adopted.
A couple of really standard racer classes and after that the club can do whatever it wants.
I see a future for Bar Stools,Ice Cream Trucks, Taxis, Limos, Saloons, Lorries,Buses(single and double deck), and Special Needs Vehicles.
The combinations are endless.
-
Jack D, my take on this was the US can have 'roadsters' if the Brits can have a world class for Milk Floats.
-
Okay it's going to take all the decency I can muster to answer this... so here goes.
We don't call anything we do a "World Record"... NEVER HAVE... they are ECTA RECORDS... Set at any Venue we choose to run on that is 0ne mile long. Those Two Venues have been Moultrie GA. and Maxton NC.
John Beckett established our procedures and then last year just before he backed away from running the ECTA he held a meeting where the members voted on running up in category and engine size... it was determined that the we would only allow engine size changes for the near future and have another vote on it at a later date, Running a car as a streamliner would no longer be permitted. It was allowed in the early years simply to provide funds to keep the organization alive, of course you'd know that if you'd been there.
As for any of our records... feel free to come run on any of them. We'd still welcome you with open arms... Your sit on scooter is going to need to run somewhere around 258mph to be competitive... ( you've got one of those don't you ? ) Personally I'd really rather see you run a modified sports, or an Altered, gas or fuel.... it would be fun to watch.
Rule books are available from Tonya Turk at 206 Sylvan Dr Enterprise AL 36330 ... send your 10 bucks and she'll be happy to put one in the mail.
She's also one of our Board members so you could offer your apology to her at the same time...
-
For a while I thought someone had slipped into FIA knocking mode yet again ........ then I saw that it was a 'local' dispute between two sides of the same Country (and the Europeans were not involved). :D
Hmmm, did you maybe do some spy and espeonage work to get this going and take the heat off ya'll? :shock:
A rule difference between SCTA/BNI and ECTA just shows me that the racing organisations are of different eras. Its up to the individual racer to decide which set of rules, or place on the planet, that they wish to compete at.
Well put Malcolm. I don't have to eat dirt to know I don't like the taste(no offense to El Mirage - lol), but I don't have to put down those that do eat it to make me feel better about the BS I feed myself.
Todd Dross
PS: KT, for having the ability of being one of the most sarcastic guys I know... I'm proud of you buddy! :roll:
-
The problem here is not the ECTA. IMO the problem is that Nebulous Theorem II H/BGS has outclassed all the higher engine classed Blown Gas Streamliner cars at Bonneville. One of those records is held by 1212FBGS.
I've never met anyone from the Nebulous Theorem II team so I can't speak for them. However it is not difficult to imagine what would happen if the SCTA adopted a rule allowing cars to run 'up-class' for additional records. Someone with a car like Nebulous Theorem II with enough effort and enough runs could break all the higher BGS class records.
Many in the SCTA are also upset with "World Record" designation given to an entry that can go 100mph with a combination that should go 200mph . . . . .
.
Yes but why are they upset? That - is the question.
IMO it seems strange for SCTA to allow ?world record? designations to a car that has a 3 litre engine and a record of 246.914 mph when it has been demonstrated that a similar car with an engine only one third that displacement (less than 1 litre) has set a record of 315.378 mph. And that same other car with a different engine that is only one half the size of the 3 litre car has set a record of 331.133mph.
Can someone explain how it is creditable (or as some would say ?createable?) to hold a record that is 84 mph slower than the class record for cars with half that allowed displacement?
Or to twist the words that Jack put forth ? Shouldn?t many in the SCTA be upset with a ?World Record? designation given to an entry that can go 246.914mph in a combination that should go over 331.133mph?
To use a wrestling analogy - It is like the champion in the 200 pound class getting his butt kicked by the champion in the 100 pound class. How much does that 200 pound class trophy mean when that happens?
Wouldn?t it be more creditable for the SCTA to retire records in higher displacement classes when a faster record is set by a lower class car and to install minimums for the higher classes that are at (or slightly higher than) the speed set by the smaller car?
Then the records would be creditable.
-
Thought of going faster yet?
-
THis is fun, east vs west im in the midwest so I an neutral.
I have both opinions for both sides on this.
First I somewhat agree with Kent on the running up of the classes with smaller displacement engines. And to add to that I think the ECTA would be more credible if ALL engines were measured. Because they do not I think some credibility is lost in the running. EL Mirage has found a way to measure anybody that sets records at the event. But they also have a larger manpower and lots of groups to help with that. I think the ECTA is moving in that direction to set something up like that. WHen they do, I see it being more credible.
On the other hand, these class changes have kept the organization alive for many years. There is no other participant that has dedicated finacially to help keep the organization alive then Scott Guthrie. WIthout his dedication to the ECTA I think it would have dissolved many years ago. Thanks Scott.
Keith I dont think Kent needs a 258 machine to be competitive, I mean if he has a well tuned 125 he could take some records with and get maybe 10 records or so in the meet... I probably think that Kent has the resources to have one of those 250+ machine available at his disposal if needed.
Jon
-
Thought of going faster yet?
************************
Well said sir.
-
Actually MK is in the middle and you guys go both ways from there.
All of this discussion has been done before many years ago. The real race cars didn't like the door slammers until they found they needed each other. When John Vesco came out with the first evolution of the narrow liner in the 50s that evolved into the Nish car. It was allowed to run time only because the organization didn't like such a narrow car and they were sure he would scare himself out of it.
You should have heard the screaming when Don De Bring went so fast in his liner at the Lakes. They wanted him to do a backup run. The sudden rule change didn't fly, but he did and that was the end of that.
Face it, the Pushrodders hate the Cammers, the 2 Stroke and Wanakers*. At least that is the same from car to bike,\. Now we have Elder and Vintage.
"The older we get, the faster we were."
As KT sorta said in his best charm school drop out dialect "Hell I didn't pay attention to him either, did he mention going faster helps?"
* Only MK can translate that for you.
-
Wouldn?t it be more creditable for the SCTA to retire records in higher displacement classes when a faster record is set by a lower class car and to install minimums for the higher classes that are at (or slightly higher than) the speed set by the smaller car?
Then the records would be creditable.
Actually, I'm suprised that the 2 clubs have not already done this. Before anyone asks, no, I'm not a member of any of them (yet!) so I'm not trying close the door after passing through.
-
Can someone explain how it is creditable (or as some would say ?createable?) to hold a record that is 84 mph slower than the class record for cars with half that allowed displacement?
Or to twist the words that Jack put forth ? Shouldn?t many in the SCTA be upset with a ?World Record? designation given to an entry that can go 246.914mph in a combination that should go over 331.133mph?
To use a wrestling analogy - It is like the champion in the 200 pound class getting his butt kicked by the champion in the 100 pound class. How much does that 200 pound class trophy mean when that happens?
Wouldn?t it be more creditable for the SCTA to retire records in higher displacement classes when a faster record is set by a lower class car and to install minimums for the higher classes that are at (or slightly higher than) the speed set by the smaller car?
Then the records would be creditable.
It seems at first thought that if a 1 1/2 liter motored car can run 331 then a C to B motor car should run much faster. The fact is that you also have to package that larger motor that also requires much larger drivetrain components inside of a body that cheats the wind as much as the body does with the 1 1/2 liter car. Almost everything gets bigger resulting in a larger body with more aero drag and at those speeds that is the big thing to overcome. An example is that Jack has numerous records with the bigger body Nebulous Theorem I, yet the top speed of the two cars has been close even though Jack can put larger motors in his car.
Not to take anything away from what Rick has done, but he is working with a better (smaller) package and has taken it to the next level. I admire what he has done, but I don't give less credit to the guys that are running slower than him with larger motors. If it was easy those records would be higher as there has been some awful good people and cars running in those classes.
I myself hope to run a motorcycle motor in my lakester and take advantage of the smaller package to hopefully run some high speeds with a lakester. Speeds comparable to what I was hoping to run with a sbc V-8, but I sure wouldn't want to see the day come where the only streamliners and lakesters out there were running motorcycle motors as that was the only package setting the records. Right now you see the same thing with turbos. It is really the only smart thing to run in a blown class yet I still love to see roots blown cars run and am glad that people still run them.
Just my thoughts,
Sumner
-
...All of this discussion has been done before many years ago. The real race cars didn't like the door slammers... Face it, the Pushrodders hate the Cammers, the 2 Stroke and Wankers.
I have to admit that what you say has some merit. We all enjoy a bit of sarcasm and merryment at the expense of the directionless masses who haven't yet seen the light and persist in competing in classes less worthy than our own, but I would just hope that we all can self moderate and keep it from getting mean.
-
No. that's not right. I am not mean, I mean't to say. Strike the word"Face' and enter "Enjoy'
THX
-
No. that's not right. I am not mean, I mean't to say. Strike the word"Face' and enter "Enjoy'
THX
Jack,
I was not referring to any post you made as being mean, it was more of a general comment about how some posts go too far rather than a specific one directed at anyone. No worries!
-
Sumner, good points sir. I can't argue with anything you said but I would like to point out something about the need for a bigger car to fit a bigger engine. There are some pretty compact car engines available for the three litre classes. Certainly a tad larger than a bike engine but still small enough that the driver is still the largest 'component' in the vehicle. I am thinking about engines like those used in Midget Racing.
Also . . .You said . .
The fact is that you also have to package that larger motor that also requires much larger drivetrain components inside of a body that cheats the wind as much as the body does with the 1 1/2 liter car. Almost everything gets bigger resulting in a larger body with more aero drag and at those speeds that is the big thing to overcome.
True as that might be there are still a few interesting exceptions to the physics. One that comes to mind is the Bonneville record for F/BGALT at 255.767mph while the F/BGS record slightly slower than that. . . .
Anyway . . good luck with the lakester. I relly enjoy your construction web page. . . . . .. Art
-
I was teasng.
-
so mark........ Would you go down to your local bike shop or send a press release to a magazine and say "I'm proud to announce I set a 1000cc world record at 100mph"????
I was going to gracefully bow out of this debate but since you asked me the direct question, I'll give you an answer. No, I would say no such thing.
First, because I am not especially a boastful person, and besides it's not a record I am particularly proud of -- not ashamed of either, we just ran it within the rules, and now hold a place in the ECTA record books until someone knocks us out.
Second, I did not set that record. Nancy Wennerberg did. You'll notice that of the 10 records that bike has, 8 different riders hold them. Some as infamous as some guy named Jon Amo. I could have done them all, but it was a lot of fun putting different riders on the bike and seeing them have fun and get some seat time.
Third, as Keith points out, it's not a world record, and I would not call it such; it's an ECTA record. Heck, I don't call my Bonneville record a "world record" either; it is just a Bonneville record. (Ouch.)
Finally Nancy's 1000cc record is 107+. Don't diminish it to 100 just because you don't like my point of view. :lol:
Now one for you. Would you put out a press release that says, "I hold the record as the fastest [car][bike] in thus-and-such class under x-litres (but only because the rules protect me from guys with smaller motors who would obliterate my record)?" Because, in my view, in light of the rules that's what SCTA records stand for. :P
Mark
-
hey guys, I'm thinking about building a car for Bonneville, Does anybody know if there is some sort of equivalency factor for rotary engines? If so, does anybody know what it is or where I can find out more about it?
Thanks in advance! :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
. . . does anybody know what it is or where I can find out more about it?
Not here, obviously. :lol: :lol:
Mark
-
Arntcha glad Ya asked.
-
I'd like to comment on the Question of Engine Measurment and the amount of volunters. The SCTA 4 wheel types have 2 who normally do this with a P & G pump, Center spark plug engine tools, or direct by dial indicators.
The tooling does cost, but I believe there would be at least 2 in the ECTA who could easily do this and would if asked. Same for the M/C's only a few do it.
Just cause you have more people does not mean you have more volunteers.
-
boy this is fun, I like bee's
-
Jack are ya going to the meating tonight
Kent
-
History Lesson #9-01-05
It was the biker bunch that came up with all the tools to measure a motor and save pulling a head.
Elmo was the second one to use it for a car.
-
Little liner don?t worry bout me, heck the old FBGS was 211. I put over 30 on it, Yeh I think its a little low now it wasn't a couple of years ago. That?s why I went back this year to bump it up. Ran a 216 with a back door of 225 in a forth gear course check out. Ran bout the same as Rick. Didn?t get a chance to get it back off the trailer. I'm confidant I?ll go over 300 if the corse is good. Kinda cool that Rick?s middle of the displacement car in class is the fastest BG liner
-
Wouldn't miss it (well tonight anyway).
-
Boy it can sure hurt bitting one's tounge. :-#
-
I'd like to comment on the Question of Engine Measurment and the amount of volunters. The SCTA 4 wheel types have 2 who normally do this with a P & G pump, Center spark plug engine tools, or direct by dial indicators.
The tooling does cost, but I believe there would be at least 2 in the ECTA who could easily do this and would if asked. Same for the M/C's only a few do it.
Just cause you have more people does not mean you have more volunteers.
Due to ECTA's proficiency of getting vehicles down the track, it would take alot more then two people to keep up with the record runs in the 1.5 days we are there. This thread has been totally off the original subject, but since this was mentioned... it makes me wonder if the SCTA was doing this in it's first ten years of existence?
Those that haven't been there would be suprised at just how few people actually make the weekends at Maxton happen.
Todd
-
In the early days of SCTA you were put into a class by virtue of how fast you ran. If you ran too fast for the others in your class, you were bumped up so it was fair.
Nobody measured NUTHIN.
ECTA actually started 30+ years ahead of the point that SCTA started and they are happy with the way it is evolving.
Comparing the 2 will do no more than generate a smile from those that can tell the difference.
-
In the early days of SCTA you were put into a class by virtue of how fast you ran. If you ran too fast for the others in your class, you were bumped up so it was fair.
Nobody measured NUTHIN.
ECTA actually started 30+ years ahead of the point that SCTA started and they are happy with the way it is evolving.
Comparing the 2 will do no more than generate a smile from those that can tell the difference.
Amen
-
those OZ guys. How can you expect them to ever take directions and do it right ?
Hell, they start out up side down !!!
I give up............LOL
-
makes me wonder if the SCTA was doing this in it's first ten years of existence?
Comparing the 2 will do no more than generate a smile from those that can tell the difference.
My point exactly Jack.. it seems there's never been anything but selective comparison, be it about speeds, records or rules. The only comparable imo is the people and the fact that they both need(ed) to time to grow.
Todd
-
What the hell's IMO (besides that imitation sour cream)?
-
Stan, "in my opinion" or IMHO "in my humble opinion". Took me some time to figure it out a few years back. :D
-
Thanx from a red-hatted old fart club racer.
-
We need an English to American to Internet conversion chart and a spell check that knows what you really mean.
A filter to score individuals on really how mean they are would help also.
-
It's amazing that this all started with my questioning the equivalence factory for rotarys not being fair!! and it has turned into a contest between the 2 wheelers and 4 wheelers and the East and the West!!
John Romero if you look on page 15 of the 2005 rule book it gives the SCTA's equivalent formula. And don't pull our leg you are not going to give up that kick ass Honda to do a rotor motor!! Although they do love turbos!
As Sum points out so well, some engines do lend themselves to small frontal areas and the rotary is certainly one of them, make the equivalent factor 2.2, which would keep the 13B in the F class and I'd build a car with a rotary and bet that it would snag a record. Small, compact, you can mount them very low, even lay them over on their side to get the inlet and exhaust out of the way, not many engines can present as small of frontal area as a rotary.
Rex