Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => LSR General Chat => Topic started by: Calkins on April 08, 2009, 08:10:02 PM
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Is there a 'big' advantage to running twin twins in an 'open' bike?
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From an aerodynamics perspective, having one engine behind the other, versus a single engine of the same size gives you a narrower package.
The complexity of the installation goes up by a bunch. Trying to figure out how to get the front drive past the rear engine, routing the exhausts and a bunch of other details. Tuning a twin so both engines run in sync is another chore. If one engine is off by a minor amount it pulls both engines down.
I saw a guy running a twin engine Triumph streamliner in the 70's that did an extremely poor job.
The engines were so close that there wasn't enough room for carbs on the front engine. So he ran intake tubing over the rear engine past the rear carbs to mount the front carbs. Must have been two feet of tubing.
Over all it was a pretty poor effort. It wouldn't pass tech today. The canopy didn't fit very well. You had to know exactly what went in first and kind of pull and push to get it to fit. The guy had his two kids trying to fit the canopy on all the while yelling from inside giving instructions. The engines had already been fired up and were starting to overheat before the canopy was finally latched.
They then pushed him off and he ran all of ten feet before falling over. We ran over to pick the streamliner up only to discover that the six or seven of us weren't enough to pick up that heavy beast. Fortunately he had a fire a little later that put an end to the effort before he could hurt himself. I know, it's hard to look at a fire as a good thing, but it was in this case.
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Ok slopoke. Not really the long answer I was looking for.
Ok, dream along with me...
Twin 1953-5 Triumph Tiger 650s, running in A/VG. Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah...
Is it worth it now? With such a small engine size, would the extra weight make the idea not worth it? I haven't looked yet, but I would think that you should be able to get 750cc-900cc out of each.
What about flatheads?
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DLA, I've seen a setup like that, but it had a blower on the front motor and piped to both. Some guys would switch the exhaust/intakes. The front motor would be standard and the rear would have the intake running into the exhaust side and headers out the back intake side. Then they would have a blower piped to the middle of the two engines, kindof like a v-twin setup, but for four cylinders instead of just two.
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Tuning a twin so both engines run in sync is another chore. If one engine is off by a minor amount it pulls both engines down.
I don't think that's true.
The moment that the stronger engine develops any slack in the drive, the weak engine speeds up, and this is self-correcting (except for beating up the primary drive). It would obviously be better if both contributions matched, but the effect isn't any more important than trying to get all 8 cylinders to match.
Dual engines have been built with engines of different sizes and even completely different designs.
What I thought was surprising was that attempts to oppose the engines at 180° intervals (front TDC, rear BDC) all failed - the chain prefers very strong but wider shock intervals caused by everything going to TDC at once.
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Calkins I have no idea what your goals are or if you are truly dreaming;
Ok, dream along with me...
Twin 1953-5 Triumph Tiger 650s, running in A/VG. Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah...
Is it worth it now? With such a small engine size, would the extra weight make the idea not worth it? I haven't looked yet, but I would think that you should be able to get 750cc-900cc out of each.
Is vintage gas your challenge?
Do you just want answers that will never be used?
Do you really want some speed for your financial investment?
Do you want to use up a bunch of the existing Triumph parts?
Denis Manning gave up on English twins about 30 years ago.
Contemplate what Bob Leppan did in the '60's.
If you want a good ride with less complications, go to the wrecked bike shop, buy several 600 cc Honda, Kawasaki or Suzuki engines and leave them alone. Make your build around them and concentrate on your chassis. You will get more bang for your buck. If u ever decide to turbo them there is more equipment available than the Triumphs could ever tolerate.
Before the Manning, Akatiff and Wheeler skirmish developed, Don Vesco told me, "there are production engines available that have a warranty on them" that would raise the 318 record. Keep it simple and have fun.
Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah...
Todays stockers from a salvage yard will outrun all that expense and probably one of those engines will out perform vintage twins. Besides, with a single engine you don't have to contemplate syncro between two engines.
But on the other hand, you can attract many pipe smoking, grey beard stroking men that will talk all day about their Limey bikes they had in 1955
Where the h e l l did you get the LSD?.
FREUD
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But on the other hand, you can attract many pipe smoking, grey beard stroking men that will talk all day about their Limey bikes they had in 1955
Where the h e l l did you get the LSD?.
FREUD
Pure Gold!!!!!!!
do the aero, buy cheap reliability and race while others fix or watch.:wink:
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Freud, I'm never surprised be anything you say! I love it!
I have so many ideas, I could fill a school bus with my drawings. I'd like to stick with Triumphs, I like them, and I'm drawn to them for some reason. I'd also like to run in the Vintage classes to be on a more level playing ground; ie, no efi and the such. I know that I'd be pi$$ing money away.
I saw The Thing thatWillie posted, and I've always wondered about twins. They seem to be tricky, and trick.
Back in the day, there was a front engine dragster called The Odd Couple. It had a hemi and a small block chevy. There thought was the small block would rev fast and help speed up the car and the hemi had the power for the top end. Weird.
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Calkins:
Your thought processes are strange enough that you should fit right in! :roll: :-D
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Calkins:
Your thought processes are strange enough that you should fit right in! :roll: :-D
Thank you.
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I slept on my statement.
I'M WRONG. Practicality can not replace passion.
FREUD
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I slept on my statement.
I'M WRONG. Practicality can not replace passion.
FREUD
So, you don't nessesarily agree with the idea, but you understand the thought, right?
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The nice part about dreams (as opposed to practical projects) is that they're fun all the way up to the point where you die, even after you give up or sell it.
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The best ever Twin-Engine Tri. was the one build and raced by Boris Murray, he knew what he was doing............We build a chassis for a twin-Tri.....thought better of it....put one 750c.c Tri.
(Chatland Kit) engine in it...... running thru a BSA close-ratio gearbox.....bolted a "wheel on a stick"
on it (I know, sorry, but we were racing SCTA/BNI)
and set a record............................................................
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Sliger on the dual Royal Enfields and Buddy Martinez with the dual Triumphs each made a mark in earlier times.
FREUD
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NEVER FORGET YOUR DREAMS willie buchta
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This isn't necessarily something I'm going to build, just something I'm interested in. I haven't seen very many twin LSR bikes. So I was wondering if it just doesn't work out right and that is the reason I'm not seeing them.
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I'm sure you all remember the Hogslayer. Nortons not Triumphs but with the exception of the later rotary Norton, probably the last hurrah for Brit engined race bikes before the rice burners took over.
http://www.nortonhogslayer.com/museum.htm
If you want weird without the LSD, how about this. 2 supercharged 1000cc Ariel Square 4 engines in a vintage GN chassis used for sprints and hillclimbing.
Robin
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Neat!
I was searching for twin Trumpet pictures yesterday and came across a thread on, I think, dragbike.com a drag bike from the '70's or so that had two Ariel Square fours! That was wierd!!
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Slopoke, that was a great search. I was there when he ran that pass. Buddy Martinez was the next to run and he went faster than Sliger
but Sliger was the first.
This has been posted earlier.
FREUD
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Ok, dream along with me...
Twin 1953-5 Triumph Tiger 650s, running in A/VG. Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah..
OK; I'll dream along with you.
A double engined Triumph, you say;
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/7ea1e722.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/36cab38a.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/d329e22a.jpg)
Dübble Trübble !....well that it's name
Flipping love it. Gotta build one some day. For some bizare reason they facinate me.
Have a small collection of twin-engined bikes-pictures.
A few other twin engined Triumph
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/87a59f26.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/ba8d66dd.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/be289e27.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/9ac70220.jpg)
..a double Jap salt bike;
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/e1c6fcaf.jpg)
and a HD:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/4bb0162c.jpg)
and another HD salt bike
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/7a74ea0a.jpg)
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Last year at Bonneville BUB Speed Trails:
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/octane98bonneville/DSC_1523.jpg)
...and from BUB as well;
yeah I know it's streamliner but it deserves a mention anytime;
the mindblowing brilliant double supercharged 2 x 1500cc Vincent engined
streamliner by Max.
You have GOT to come to BUB, just to watch and listen to this monster :
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/octane98bonneville/DSC_0003.jpg)
...the sound alone can make grown men cry....with joy!
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Ok, dream along with me...
Twin 1953-5 Triumph Tiger 650s, running in A/VG. Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah..
OK; I'll dream along with you.
A double engined Triumph, you say;
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/7ea1e722.jpg)
What can you tell me about Pat's bike? Any idea where it is now and any history on it or on Pat?
I know his daughter and she would love to know some history as her Pops passed a few years ago.
John
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What can you tell me about Pat's bike? Any idea where it is now and any history on it or on Pat?
I know his daughter and she would love to know some history as her Pops passed a few years ago.
John
I wish I could help, but I'm afraid I can't.
The only info I have is what one can read from these bits
Sorry 'bout that.
The Dubble Trubble in a 1956 Cycle Magazine article!
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/b8e3783c.jpg)
from Griffith Borgeson on Hot Rods How to Book from the early 60s; courtesy of Gabe's collection!
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/40275021.jpg)
To get them in full size, so you can actually read them,
click this:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/40275021.jpg (http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/40275021.jpg)
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/b8e3783c.jpg (http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/b8e3783c.jpg)
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Calkins, sleep with both hands above the covers tonight.
FREUD
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Calkins, sleep with both hands above the covers tonight...
One could, if so inclined, come up with a nasty joke about twin handed..........naaa, never mind.
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Calkins I have no idea what your goals are or if you are truly dreaming;
Ok, dream along with me...
Twin 1953-5 Triumph Tiger 650s, running in A/VG. Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah...
Is it worth it now? With such a small engine size, would the extra weight make the idea not worth it? I haven't looked yet, but I would think that you should be able to get 750cc-900cc out of each.
Is vintage gas your challenge?
Do you just want answers that will never be used?
Do you really want some speed for your financial investment?
Do you want to use up a bunch of the existing Triumph parts?
Denis Manning gave up on English twins about 30 years ago.
Contemplate what Bob Leppan did in the '60's.
If you want a good ride with less complications, go to the wrecked bike shop, buy several 600 cc Honda, Kawasaki or Suzuki engines and leave them alone. Make your build around them and concentrate on your chassis. You will get more bang for your buck. If u ever decide to turbo them there is more equipment available than the Triumphs could ever tolerate.
Before the Manning, Akatiff and Wheeler skirmish developed, Don Vesco told me, "there are production engines available that have a warranty on them" that would raise the 318 record. Keep it simple and have fun.
Bored, stroked, carbed, ported, cammed, blah, blah, blah...
Todays stockers from a salvage yard will outrun all that expense and probably one of those engines will out perform vintage twins. Besides, with a single engine you don't have to contemplate syncro between two engines.
But on the other hand, you can attract many pipe smoking, grey beard stroking men that will talk all day about their Limey bikes they had in 1955
Where the h e l l did you get the LSD?.
FREUD
...and here I was thinking I was going to go fast with 60 year old twin engine English iron.. Thanks for straightening me out.
Silly me. I should have known better.
Max
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MAX.....it all applies to you also....except once again, passion rules.
You will just live with it and make a lot of people, with similar dreams, very happy.
Now get back to work.
Stainless needs something new to post.
Avoid the pipe smokers for they can shorten your life.
FREUD
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Someone must have a picture of the twin Harley, welded togeather side by side V4, that ran at the lake for a few years. Took the good part of a V twin, narrow, and lost it. But it was a neat project.
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Calkins, sleep with both hands above the covers tonight.
FREUD
You kill me! I dought I'll be able to contain myself tonight!!
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MAX.....
Avoid the pipe smokers for they can shorten your life.
FREUD
What type of pipe did you mean anyway? The type with hippie cabage installed into the hot end?
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......anything can work.......
whats your definition of "can work"...?
Max's bike is a perfect example of that.....
over a decade........more time and money than
I can appreciate........and more of the finest
machining and expertise than anything on the planet......
and he is hopeful to find the potential it has in the near future...
how much...time...money...and expertise do you have....?
and what is your definition of success.........
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Not saying I'm going to build IT soon, but I'd love to.
All I would want is:
-A challenge
-A build
-A road trip
-A pass
-And many friends and memories.
Anything more is icing on the cake!
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Justin
here's another one to encourage you. Santa Pod Raceway in the UK 1969 or 70.
Max
you'll have my vote for an honourary knighthood if do the business with the Vincents. I'll have a word with Liz never fear!! I lived 10 miles from the Vincent factory when I was a kid and used to cycle over there to catch a glimpse of anything interesting. Same with George Brown's place. He always had Nero and later Super Nero in the shopfront when it wasn't racing. Not sure if drooling on the window was a good idea but my eyesight is still ok so obviously I kept my hands to myself.
Cheers
Robin
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I agree with the earlier post about Boris Murray. He knew how to make a twin engine Triumph roar! :wink:
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l24/Rockjok6/BorisatLyons.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l24/Rockjok6/BorrisMurray.jpg)
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Just imagine the pucker factor!
Would a LSR twin be pretty much setup the same as a drag twin?
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:-o Only if your gonna go part way down the salt...../Crow
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Is it mainly steering geometry? I figured the tires, brakes, and tranny/gearing.
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One engine is enough of a challenge to run wide open for 3 miles. The complexities of the engine drives and trans connection far outweigh the advantages. If you are planning in running big displacement just build an S & S giant engine. One engine, one trans, plenty of challenges.
Joe
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Does S&S build vintage Triumph's now? Well, I guess I should get a copy of there newest catalog! Or is that B-Stock?
:evil:
:-D
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Forget the S and S. Buy a 'busa.
Rice is cheaper than corn.
The USA doesn't make fuel out of rice.
FREUD
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$crew that! CH3 NO2=Power!!!
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Forget the S and S. Buy a 'busa.
FREUD
I'd lose count on how many of each of those I've heard about or seen pictures of. Boring! I don't know any better. I go for the ridiculously stupid hard projects!
Anyway.
Twin engine bikes, in land speed racing.
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MAX.....it all applies to you also....except once again, passion rules.
You will just live with it and make a lot of people, with similar dreams, very happy.
Now get back to work.
Stainless needs something new to post.
Avoid the pipe smokers for they can shorten your life.
FREUD
Passion? No. Tenacity, yes.
Some people will never understand the "why".
Max
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You said it! Just imagine how cross-eyed people at work look at me when I say 'Twin engined motorcycle'
BECAUSE!!! That's why!
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Calkins, I'm all for individuality, and doing what moves you, but your original question was pretty open;
"Is there a 'big' advantage to running twin twins in an 'open' bike?"
So naturally you are going to get a lot of answers, and the thread will (and should) include arguments for alternatives.
Dean
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For me, it's like a moth to a flame. It's so wrong!!! For some reason I really like them.
But, like I said. In the open bike classes, I haven't seen very many pictures of twins, so I was wondering if the added weight of a second engine over weighs the power it makes. Yea, there's newer stuff from the factory that'll wip-up on most old-school stuff. My dad was telling about a guy he knows that quit running his top fuel Harley drag bike because he was tired of spending money on it and still getting beat by a nearly stock street bike.
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Max.........come on dude.......you dont thing passion applies to you....get real...
definition passion from various dictionaries......:
"intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction"........
" a strong liking or desire for or devotion to some activity, object, or concept "........
"to an emotion that is deeply stirring or ungovernable"........
"Boundless enthusiasm"..... " The object of such enthusiasm".........
Every sense of the word applies to you Max..........
YOUR TENACIOUS BECAUSE OF YOU PASSION.................
now the definition of success is very subjective.........folks can have their own defintion of that..........
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Max, you didn't convince Joe or me... you have passion for your scooter and its fraternal twin Vincents. Tenacious, sure, otherwise you would have quit after the 3rd scooter. I spend a lot of time with you, I see it in your words and expression when we talk, if it ain't passion and tenacity I don't know the definition of either....
Calkins, you will require some of both to do any Bonneville project.... you will require a lot of both to do twins...
See ya on the salt 8-)
For all, success is what you make of it.... If you can build a project and get it down the salt you were successful.... set a record and you were very successful
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Another twin. :-D Oh OK, a V twin so a bad joke but a great bike from the 60's. Alf Hagon's shorrock supercharged JAP V twin on which he clocked the first sub ten second quarter for a bike in the UK. What you see is exactly how he rode it so more or less an engine on a stick.
Cheers
Robin
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"Why do I have a single engine in my motorcycle?
Because two engines never like each other."
Denis Manning 2009
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Joe Daly:
While there's not much doubt about the hassles of dual engines being a pain in the "neck" to run at the lsr events -- don't say it outweighs the good stuff 'til you've seen Bob Moreland's beast. It works pretty well. Noonan, what's Bob's best speed on that critter? I don't remember.
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Justin,
Find yourself an old Keith Black Hemi that has been windowed. Cut the front two cylinders off, then cut the rear two cylinders off. Weld them together. (Sounds easier that it is) Now you have a four cylinder you can run on Nitro that would make more Torque than you could ever use. More reliable than two triumphs joined together. And make more HP and Torque than you could ever get out of two triumphs tied together.
The way I read the rule book you could run a motor like this in the Motorcycle Sidecar Streamliner Unlimited Class at Bonneville. There is no current Record in this class.
Tom G.
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I'm planning on running a twin engine Suzuki at Speed Week, it has a pair of 1st generation GSXR 1100 race engines, each displacing 1255cc. Larry Forstall built the bike back in the early 90's, other than a couple of shakedown runs and passing tech, it has never run under full throttle. Bonneville has a history of multi engine racers, I was after Larry for years to let me run it. I had it shipped up to Alberta where I've been able to perform some maintenance and repairs. Every time that I work on it, I come away impressed with the innovation and quality of work that Larry performed. I have upgraded the spoked front wheel to a Performance Machine that matches the rear. I ordered an early GSXR competition fairing and landspeed front fender from Air Tech. Rather than wrap it in an extended 'Busa body or a Toy, I thought I'd keep it looking period. I swore I'd never go back to carbs, now I have 8 to contend with. I don't think my Hayabusa is going to last long with a 10mm stroker, the Double will provide entertainment for the rest of the week.
We'll run it in 3000 APS/G as a Beairsto-Forstall entry.
I'll try and post a picture.
-Scott
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its not the unlimited class (over 3000 cc ) its the unlimited gas and fuel class page 126 7.j.12 class ug and uf ----- any reciprocating engine which uses the otto cycle may run in streamliner category only. supercharged engines do not advance class size
willie buchta
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its not the unlimited class (over 3000 cc ) its the unlimited gas and fuel class page 126 7.j.12 class ug and uf ----- any reciprocating engine which uses the otto cycle may run in streamliner category only. supercharged engines do not advance class size
willie buchta
Thanks Willie for the clarification. IMO that is even better.
Tom G.
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Joe Daly:
While there's not much doubt about the hassles of dual engines being a pain in the "neck" to run at the lsr events -- don't say it outweighs the good stuff 'til you've seen Bob Moreland's beast. It works pretty well. Noonan, what's Bob's best speed on that critter? I don't remember.
Slim,
Bob's beast ran 217mph at Bonneville on Gas and Carbs several years ago and has even run 208 on the much shorter dirt course at El Mirage.
Many new changes have been made, we look for much higher speeds and records with this refined machine.. :cheers:
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Find yourself an old Keith Black Hemi that has been windowed. Cut the front two cylinders off...
Tom G.
Hey Justin and Tom,
Been there and done that back in the sixties, raced it in 1969-72 at Hawaii International Raceway Park.
Sawed the first two cylinders off a 392 Chrysler Hemi. Didn't figure I needed the other two cylinders off the back. I built it with all the specks from Don Garletts "Swamp Rat". Zig Erison 990 roller cam, Donevon rocker arms, Donevon four bolt main caps, Mickey Thompson aluminum rods, Forged True Pistons, 53 Ford modified distributor, Volkswagon oil pump, a 53 series GM blower; made a four port injector body off of a Pontiac (I think it was for a Pontiac), anyway it was a Hilbourn, also I used a Hilbourn fuel pump. Ran it on 90% nitro. Gartletts was making around 4000 hp back then, so I figured two of the buckets was making around 1000 hp.
If you'd like to see the photos of this drag bike, go to www.vincentstreamliner.com and click on the button at the top, "Racers". When the list comes up, click on "The Quarter Hemi".
A little bit of passion I suppose, but again I say TENACITY's what got the job done.
Everyone starts with passion.
Max
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Max,
Thanks for the information and the link. Just too cool. Like you said just think of how that setup would be today with all the improvements in Slider clutches, electronics, etc. Plus today they say Drag race motors put out around 8000 HP, so 1500-2000 HP would be awesome.
Thanks again,
Tom G.
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Max
Wow! What a bike. I'm pretty sure I'd need to work my way up to that beast!
Cool!!!
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Justin, hopefully you have found these 2 threads..
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3908.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5307.0.html
I won't guarantee a good read, but you might enjoy them.
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NEVER FORGET YOUR DREAMS willie buchta
Picasso,
How would you like to build the 1st ever Twin -Engine,Twin Turbo Charged V-rod and go for 300mph +
I'd do it IN WHAT EVER SETUP YOU DESIGHN AS LONG AS I'M THE RIDER/DRIVER :-o!
I've got just about everything but the 2 new motors and ur Maqic!
Twin Turbo's on Alchy :evil:. I know i can make 300 rwhp each out of 2 good new TT v-rod race motors,
I just need allot of help? :?
I'm designing a TT/Racer Kit hopefully very soon,
kaz...........!
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Or two Ducati engines side by side
This is in a Museum in Japan. The Ducati V4 Apollo
Ducati built two of these for the Berliner company to trial for CHP in the late sixties or early seventies
Only problem, no one made tyres that could match the output of the motor at the time
G
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc28/grumm441/Some%20Other%20Stuff/IMG_5604.jpg)