Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: edinlr on October 27, 2022, 04:36:06 PM
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Curious what is the preferred fuel for a turbo motor in the fuel class? The nitrous guys (obviously) swear they can get more power than just using methanol, but alky seems a lot easier after making the fuel system changes. I can't really tell from drag racing because they usually only allow one power adder and have the big displacement and weight factors too.
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E85 made our I/BFL go 248 exit speed. Using a MOTEC for fuel injection and ignition on a de-stroked BUSA
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E85 made our I/BFL go 248 exit speed. Using a MOTEC for fuel injection and ignition on a de-stroked BUSA
Did you ever run gasoline, nitrous, or methanol before? I am curious as to the power difference between the different fuels? C85 is certainly interesting and getting a lot of attention.
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NITRO!!!!
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NITRO!!!!
I can't afford all the broken parts that would involve trying to learn. Looking for the best option to move to fuel.
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PM me please :cheers:
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Hi Ed! I was wondering the same thing. Here is a great video that scientifically compares pump, race gas, E85, methanol, etc and how the HP, torque, AFR, tuning differs for each fuel.
https://youtu.be/ryqyTPfNj1Q (https://youtu.be/ryqyTPfNj1Q)
Don
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Hi Ed! I was wondering the same thing. Here is a great video that scientifically compares pump, race gas, E85, methanol, etc and how the HP, torque, AFR, tuning differs for each fuel.
https://youtu.be/ryqyTPfNj1Q (https://youtu.be/ryqyTPfNj1Q)
Don
Don, the video was interesting, but the graphics at the end were wrong as the motor suddenly went from 550hp to 750 in all types of fuel. I would like to see how a tuned motor compared on 116, E85, and M5 with accurate graphing. I left a comment on there and will be interested to see if they update the results.
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Edinlr- they didn't mention but they changed engines for the methanol test. Went from EFI engine to a carb. Totally different deal but showed, with that set up that peak power was no better with meth. Lower in the curve yes.
My understanding to go to the OP question is that when optimized that methanol is worth a bit over race gas (in a race engine, not the street deal they tested in the video). Boosted and such a different issue. Nitrous on the other had can be anything you are willing to dump into it but much more than just a few HP (10-20 maybe) but in a bike I have no clue but but you can get 50-100% HP) You mention not being willing to take the risk of broken parts with nitro. Properly done can be worth a lot of course. Improperly done, regular gas, race gas, methanol (contrary to popular belief, it can detonate too with bad results) and nitro can all lead to a basket of broken parts.
WE are all about peak power down the track at the 3 or the 5. If you have a choice go with nitrous.
Edit: Oh, i just noticed you were running a turbo. In that case my thoughts would be go with methanol and up the boost. A lot. :cheers: Simpler than trying to mount and deal with N2O and tuning much easier. Power improvement? Only way to tell is test both.
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I guess the options vary with you and your risk... Any fuel you mentioned can and will destroy a motor at WOT. With boost... it can happen faster than NA. I have used 110, c16 and E85 with boost. Test, test and then maybe test some more. How much boost are you thinking... anything above 15 I would recommend c16 or E85... make the E85 with good race gas and E98. I mix my own and it costs less than $3 a gallon. Their pump was a little haywire on the last batch so we bought e98 for about a buck a gallon. :? :laugh:
I would try methanol, but I haven't figured out how to deliver enough of it to the motor. My 1000cc injectors are at the limit with E85 in the 1 liter. Sure I could get larger injectors, but my idle is already almost 3K. I have looked at a second set of injectors, but I don't know where to put them... the hat is already very close to the top.
I have used lots of N20 NA, have not needed it with boost yet... NA we have run 100+ HP for 52 seconds
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It it were me and I was looking for longevity and consistency I would go with methanol and up the boost. Just less variables to worry about (nitrous pressure, warming the bottle, adding fuel, etc). Running a high amount of methanol through the engine has a great cooling affect too. My old boss ran a drag racing class called "ultimate street" with a turbocharged Volkswagen Karmann Ghia. It was driven 25 miles around Las Vegas with no cooling system and then raced all day. The methanol kept the engine cool enough.
You would have the extra power all the time vs just when you are on the bottle. It just seems more simple to me.
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Thanks for all of the responses. As Stainless suggested, we will test and test. I am looking at a M-BF record and may see what kind of power we can get with E85 and go to M5 if we have to. Since this will be an air cooled four cylinder motor, the ethanol and methanol sound attractive for the cooling properties. Not to mention the simplicity over running nitrous.
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Ed, what bike are you considering running? Carburetor or injection?
Don
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Ed, what bike are you considering running? Carburetor or injection?
Don
Blown with f/i
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E85 pencils out as a pretty good choice and as a bonus race grade e85 is a lot cheaper than race gas. I have planned to run e85 and nitrous on a N/A motor for a couple years but fate said otherwise. So nothing useful about performance to offer aside from some theoretical AFR numbers. But one bit of info I will toss out here is that I found E85 to be pretty corrosive to raw aluminum parts. Suggest flushing it out of the fuel system after your runs if you go that way. I ended up coating the inside of my float bowls with alodine, which helped a lot.
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Hand Raised!
Tested on my dyno all kinds of fuel combos. For a nitrous built engine: a quality E85 wins but you still battle exhaust temps when you spray a gob (like 200 HP over a 200 NA engine). Notice I said quality, what you get out of the pump is "o.k." for brief testing, but doesn't fair well on the track. I personally run Ignite Race Fuels. Methonal (M1) does better with the exhaust temps, but does rob power because it fills the cylinder more, M5 gains a little back, but.... Secret: there is a limit on how much you can spray, once the cylinder is full of nitrous that's all the HP it will make. With gasoline based fuels, C16, exhaust temps get out of hand and melt a lot of things.
Blown. at lower boost levels, when I say lower I mean like 30 psi and under, E85 wins again. However, above that boost level you can't beat M1, you don't "need" an intercooler until a Mega LOT of boost. Powerwise C16 produces a little less than E85, but a lot of work has to be focused on keeping those intake temps down.
N/A motors. using non-oxygenated gas based fuels verses Methanol verses E85. "Quality" E85 wins again. Oxy Fuels like MR12 or MRX02 or even U 4.4 are hard too beat. Using MR12 is like a small shot of nitrous, I pick up 10-12 wHP on a 200 wHP motorcycle verses non-oxy fuels.
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I've seen a N/A two stroke bike run a couple mph faster just by switching from non oxy to oxy gas on the salt.
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Hand Raised!
Tested on my dyno all kinds of fuel combos. For a nitrous built engine: a quality E85 wins but you still battle exhaust temps when you spray a gob (like 200 HP over a 200 NA engine). Notice I said quality, what you get out of the pump is "o.k." for brief testing, but doesn't fair well on the track. I personally run Ignite Race Fuels. Methonal (M1) does better with the exhaust temps, but does rob power because it fills the cylinder more, M5 gains a little back, but.... Secret: there is a limit on how much you can spray, once the cylinder is full of nitrous that's all the HP it will make. With gasoline based fuels, C16, exhaust temps get out of hand and melt a lot of things.
Blown. at lower boost levels, when I say lower I mean like 30 psi and under, E85 wins again. However, above that boost level you can't beat M1, you don't "need" an intercooler until a Mega LOT of boost. Powerwise C16 produces a little less than E85, but a lot of work has to be focused on keeping those intake temps down.
N/A motors. using non-oxygenated gas based fuels verses Methanol verses E85. "Quality" E85 wins again. Oxy Fuels like MR12 or MRX02 or even U 4.4 are hard too beat. Using MR12 is like a small shot of nitrous, I pick up 10-12 wHP on a 200 wHP motorcycle verses non-oxy fuels.
Without yhe Nitrous, what advantages/disavantages did you see with M5 over M1 ?
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Hand Raised!
Tested on my dyno all kinds of fuel combos. For a nitrous built engine: a quality E85 wins but you still battle exhaust temps when you spray a gob (like 200 HP over a 200 NA engine). Notice I said quality, what you get out of the pump is "o.k." for brief testing, but doesn't fair well on the track. I personally run Ignite Race Fuels. Methonal (M1) does better with the exhaust temps, but does rob power because it fills the cylinder more, M5 gains a little back, but.... Secret: there is a limit on how much you can spray, once the cylinder is full of nitrous that's all the HP it will make. With gasoline based fuels, C16, exhaust temps get out of hand and melt a lot of things.
Blown. at lower boost levels, when I say lower I mean like 30 psi and under, E85 wins again. However, above that boost level you can't beat M1, you don't "need" an intercooler until a Mega LOT of boost. Powerwise C16 produces a little less than E85, but a lot of work has to be focused on keeping those intake temps down.
N/A motors. using non-oxygenated gas based fuels verses Methanol verses E85. "Quality" E85 wins again. Oxy Fuels like MR12 or MRX02 or even U 4.4 are hard too beat. Using MR12 is like a small shot of nitrous, I pick up 10-12 wHP on a 200 wHP motorcycle verses non-oxy fuels.
Ransom - so for a bike running 20 to 24# of boost you would run E85 instead of M5? Is that because the power difference doesn't justify the hassle of methanol?
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I have been researching this very same issue for my turbo Hayabusa bike. There seems to be a consensus that C85 is the best for blown engines, and C85 plus methanol/water injection is even better. That is what I am building my engine to run on as I have blown engines due to overheated intake air (and lack of tuning).
Don
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I have been researching this very same issue for my turbo Hayabusa bike. There seems to be a consensus that C85 is the best for blown engines, and C85 plus methanol/water injection is even better. That is what I am building my engine to run on as I have blown engines due to overheated intake air (and lack of tuning).
Don
I like the idea of the E85, but I would go ahead and pay the extra money for the race version as you are more assured of getting a quality product and the right octane. I heard that E85 sometimes may only contain 50% ethanol and the octane can vary. I want whatever I tune with to match what I will use on the track.
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Here are a couple of videos I made during Covid for a FSAE team of engineering students that might shed light on the history and reasons when water injection is called for.
Enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAaQ0STRioo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knkgSYP3uMc&t=147s
Highest power potential with different fuels: Nitromethane/Methanol blend is #1
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There's consumer grade E85 that you get at the gas pump, and there's race e85. The consumer stuff varies in content with the seasons. Race E85 is (or should be) a consistent 85% ethanol. The guy I buy from will test it to show the actual percentage before filling a jug. I also bought my own test kit to use next season. They are inexpensive and dirt simple to use.
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As I said earlier, if you don't want to spend $18-20 a gallon there is an alternative to the variations in pump E85. There are stations here that sell E98 for around $2-3 a gallon... I don't know what they put in it for the 2% but tastes pretty bad. :-P :roll: Then you just mix in the race gas of your choice. I've used Sunoco 110 and last batch I used my leftover c16. I've used a couple of different test kits, they all work.
But hey... if you need to use expensive stuff I could sell ya some of mine for $10 a gallon.
:cheers:
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Question on difference bewtween M5 and M1. M5 gives a slightly fatter TQ curve over M1, but by the time you are at peak HP, they are nearly the same. If you want you could run race E85 and add some nitropropane to get the same results.
Yes, I would run 20-ish lbs boost over quality E85, just keep a tabs on the EGTs.
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Question on difference bewtween M5 and M1. M5 gives a slightly fatter TQ curve over M1, but by the time you are at peak HP, they are nearly the same. If you want you could run race E85 and add some nitropropane to get the same results.
Yes, I would run 20-ish lbs boost over quality E85, just keep a tabs on the EGTs.
"Thankyou Sir",, there dosent seem to be much "real world" information out there on M5