Landracing Forum
Thrust-powered Land Speed information => Discussions on absolute land speed records => Topic started by: speedrecordclub on June 24, 2020, 05:40:19 AM
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Guinness WR have now recognised Jessi Combs as the fastest woman in history driving the North American Eagle jet car to a speed of 522.783mph -
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/fastest-land-speed-record-(female)?fbclid=IwAR2tbC6ScI8Th6O1FxIi7jmanNJ7DQjsTvGOGW-emWc-q9VFBSc-Pzyg6pQ
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Does anyone take a Guinness World Record seriously?
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There are a number of record holders involved with speed who do take the Guinness World Records seriously. Yes, there are some entries in the book for what might be called 'odd-ball vehicles'. The GWR Organisation sets a standard for those whose speed efforts perhaps do not fit in with any of the other sanctioning bodies across the world. Where would an Autonomous Car go to get speeds ratified?
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I call bulls**t. She does not deserve to be recognized for a non existent record. Guinness book of world records is a joke.
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Kitty O'Neill was the only woman to actually hold an FIA World Record. She set the 1/2-km Standing Start record at 207.730 mi/h in July 7, 1977 in the rocket-powered (Class C - thrust) Ky Michaelson Rocket. Of course, that speed is the average speed for the distance - maximum speed was likely 400+ mi/h. There are no women's categories for FIA. It is either an FIA World Record - or not! If I recall, Jessi's vehicle was an FIM 3-wheeled thrust vehicle. Still no women's category. FIM still requires 2-way runs,
So Kitty O'Neill is still the fastest woman to hold an FIA World Record, I believe. She was the real deal.
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Sorry she died, but a Guinness record is no record at all.
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Just another Budweiser Rocket, a non-record doesn't mean $hit in the real world!
Sid.
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Just to correct Mayoman.
Dick - the NAE that Jessi drove had five wheels. It would have been eligible for an FIA record, if the team had chosen to submit an entry with all of the support documentation now required.
The FIM do not list what Kitty did in the three wheeled SMI Motivator, which may have been because she was not faster than Craig in Spirit of America by 1% or that team did not obtain ratification of the results in '76 when the paperwork says .... (Female).
The FIA and FIM have to be kept on the same level as both have an enduring role in motor car and motor cycle sport - two way runs and no gender differentiation.
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Yes, I forgot about those extra 2 wheels added to keep the F-104 airplane belly from sagging. With wings, the fuselage was supported from the center of the wing root. No wings, no support.
FIM diverged from FIAs credibility when they changed the land speed record rule for vehicles setting records above 1,000 km/h - to "instantaneous" timing. How does that work? Speed (velocity) = Distance divided by Time (kilometers per hour). Instantaneous time equals zero! Huh? How did somebody ($$$) slip that new rule in. I believe FIM still required runs in 2 directions and timing actuated by the passage of the vehicle.
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Malcolm & Dick,
just to clarify some points on the SMI Motivator runs in 76
1. Craig Breedlove records with the SoA Three Wheeler....only the 63 record...407 mph....was certified by the FIM...the 1964 records was certified by the FIA...albeit the racer had only three wheels....FIA couldn't accept that a FIM vehicle was faster....
2. SMI was also a three wheeler configuration (cyclecar) as the SoA...but rocket powered...and FIM has run them under rocket, not jet
3. the FIM has no percentage rule...only the FIA had for a long time a 1 percent rule
4. the 512 mph from Kitty with the SMI is slightly faster than the 407 mph - the fastest SoA Three Wheeler record was 526 mph in 64.....but FIA as said before...
5. the SMI run from Kitty was the average over 1 Kilometer...also the paper signed by Earl Flanders (as done under the two hour rules)...the FIM chief timer at that time....says....women record....!!!!
6. the paper was signed by Flanders for to be certified by the FIM....this never happens...as it was blocked by Hal Needham....he didn't like to pay the fee
7. Hal Needham did not only blocked the certification of this two runs....he blocked a fourth run....after Kitty run in her third run very close to Blue Flame speed....a lawer called by Hal done her out when she was ready to go for the return run....
8. the NAE from the certification has to run under FIA....since the new safety requirement rules the jet car was not anymore FIA legal.....
9. the average speed of Jessi now under Guinness rules is not the average over the mile......it is not known if they timed this time also the kilo...so also no kilo speed is known
and finally....
10. Kitty set a short distance record with a rocket car at El Mirage under FIA rule...so she set an official record without the ending "women record".....this one has no gender
Jessi was very brave and she paid the highest prize......she had this needs for speed in her blood....what she done with NAE was not for the show...she really likes to go fast......someone was faster......very sad end of a dream....
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If ed had not passed away would he have been in the car instead of jessi on that fateful day.
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Nope, when Ed was still alive he done only the first run (if necessary) to check the newest modifications....all other, following runs, was with Jessi as driver to turn her dream into reality....
If ed had not passed away would he have been in the car instead of jessi on that fateful day.
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PorkPie, Thanks for the clarifications, also I believe your assessment of Jessi is spot on.
Hope to see you on the salt, Don
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From some random web site, so no reason why it would be accurate but matches information I had previously gleaned:
"In September last year, during a Jessi Combs exhibit at the famous Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles, Combs? team said they had filed for the posthumous record, since Jessi had been able to perform the two mandatory consecutive runs before crashing. Also then, they said she had averaged 531.889 mph (855.9 kph) from the 515.346 mph (829.3 kph) and 548.432 mph (882.6 kph) runs, topping O?Neil?s 1976 run at 512.7 mph (825.1 kph).
Guinness lists the current record at 522.783 mph (841.338 kph), which is lower than the previous figure but still over O?Neil?s. Jessi?s longtime dream has finally come true."
This seems to say her fastest one-way was 548+mph and she had a two-way average of 531+mph.
So where does the Guinness figure of 522+mph come from???
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Where do any of the NAE claims come from? Last I heard, NAE was their own sanctioning body.
Jessi was a brave young lady - but I believe she was taken advantage of with the NAE.
Did anybody time the NAE other than NAE?
What was the timed distance?
Were the 2 runs in opposite direction?
Still seems very mysterious.
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What little I can glean from the activity of the NAE team at Alvord and information on the three wheel record speed(s) of SoA and SMI Motivator.
The FIM (the correct governing body for two and three wheeled vehicles) have acknowledged the World Record speed of Craig Breedlove, over the flying start 1 kilometre, on 13th October 1964 at 848.651 km/h {527.327 mph). It is in their 75th Anniversary record book (dated 1979), which is the final listing before the change was made to the calculation method and the lists started again.
Yes, the FIA did get a 'jet unlimited class' which accepted all vehicles.
Guinness World Records (GWR) have received sufficient information from the NAE team and two independent witnesses who were on the desert, to agree to the gender record speed now being Jessi's at 522.783 mph. This is an average speed from two runs.
Guinness WR normally provide a Specific Guideline Pack for speed record attempts. I do not know if this was done for the NAE team, but I would expect so, because there were two independent witnesses on the desert. The timed distance would have been specified, as would the speed being taken from two runs.
A slight mystery exists because the average speed of 531.889 mph was publicised widely in various media, but has not been offered to GWR. It does not change that Jessi drove fast and well whenever she took the controls of NAE.
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Sorry pork i dont believe that. Why would ed spend all that money and time to build a car to break the record that is held by andy green in thrust ssc and then let someone else drive the car and try to break some non existent record. When the car was on display at aero books in burbank ca i talked to ed and he said that he was going to be very satisfied breaking thrust ssc's record.
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The FIM (the correct governing body for two and three wheeled vehicles) have acknowledged the World Record speed of Craig Breedlove, over the flying start 1 kilometre, on 13th October 1964 at 848.651 km/h {527.327 mph). It is in their 75th Anniversary record book (dated 1979), which is the final listing before the change was made to the calculation method and the lists started again.
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Interesting ...
The 527mph speed was on 15 October.
Also, 527mph was for the flying start kilometre. I thought the acknowledged record was the time/speed over the mile, a slightly lower 526.277mph. I don't have a copy of the 1979 record book to check.
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I have no idea what you talking about....
read my comment.....correct....
My comment was about Alvord in Oregon....
Ed always talked about that he like to break the Thrust SSC record....with the NAE....but therefore he has to get the rights to run in the Diamonds Valley as the Alvord is far to short for the jet car to get up to speed....
So at Alvord....Ed has always the idea that Jessie run there her record....and improving the speed of the NAE....and than in the Diamonds Valley he would go for the next step.....and for the Thrust SSC record....
Nothing other I had wrote....OR?
Sorry pork i dont believe that. Why would ed spend all that money and time to build a car to break the record that is held by andy green in thrust ssc and then let someone else drive the car and try to break some non existent record. When the car was on display at aero books in burbank ca i talked to ed and he said that he was going to be very satisfied breaking thrust ssc's record.
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Malcolm & Tricky....
at first....
did we talk about FIM or FIA....
in 1979 a 75 years anniversary for the FIM would be strange as there was no proper motorcycle association (and for the records) before 1920....
on the 13th October....Craig broke Art record with the 468 mph
on the 15th October.....Craig run the first time over 500.....and end up in the pond...this was the 526 over the mile....
What really surprised me now....that someone had a Kilo record.....for the 15th Ocotber....
To Craig Breedlove....they had on the 13th and the 15th no timing lights set up for the kilo as they were only interest into the mile speed....
also, for years the older FIA paper shows only the mile speed....
I'm very interest where they found the kilo speed.....
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The FIM (the correct governing body for two and three wheeled vehicles) have acknowledged the World Record speed of Craig Breedlove, over the flying start 1 kilometre, on 13th October 1964 at 848.651 km/h {527.327 mph). It is in their 75th Anniversary record book (dated 1979), which is the final listing before the change was made to the calculation method and the lists started again.
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Interesting ...
The 527mph speed was on 15 October.
Also, 527mph was for the flying start kilometre. I thought the acknowledged record was the time/speed over the mile, a slightly lower 526.277mph. I don't have a copy of the 1979 record book to check.
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Tom, I digress from the topic to address the sketchy origin of the FIM and its records list.
The thrust driven 3-wheelers caused some issues within FIM which they decided to put to bed, permanently in 1979.
The FIM was born from the F?d?ration Internationale des Clubs Motocyclistes (FICM), which itself was founded in Paris, France, on 21 December 1904.
The name was changed to the F?d?ration Internationale Motocycliste (FIM) in 1949, the same year that also saw the first race of the famed Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix. The headquarters were transferred to Geneva, Switzerland in 1959.
1994 saw the headquarters relocated, this time to Mies, Switzerland, and occupy its own building for the first time, shaped like a stylized motorcycle. The name was changed again in 1998 to the F?d?ration Internationale de Motocyclisme at the congress in Cape Town, South Africa. The same year, the FIM was given provisional status of recognition by the International Olympic Committee, and gained full status in 2000 at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney, Australia.
2004 marked the organization's centenary, and celebrations were held at the congress in Paris in October.
FIM Appendices for FIM World Records 2009, Appendix 018.4
THREE-WHEELER RECORDS MADE BETWEEN 1952 AND 1963
Sidecar records registered from 1st January 1952 to 31st December 1963 were made under regulations which have since been modified. At that time, no passenger or ballast was carried (see Art. 19, Appendix 01, Road Racing Technical Rules).
Due to the new method of calculation, introduced by the FIM TECHNICAL COMMISSION in JANUARY 1978, short distance records made prior to this date are absolute and therefore cannot be broken.
Consequently, these records are definite and cannot be broken. They are included in a separate section of the World Records Book (1979 Publication) for historical purposes only.
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on the 13th October....Craig broke Art record with the 468 mph
on the 15th October.....Craig run the first time over 500.....and end up in the pond...this was the 526 over the mile....
What really surprised me now....that someone had a Kilo record.....for the 15th Ocotber....
To Craig Breedlove....they had on the 13th and the 15th no timing lights set up for the kilo as they were only interest into the mile speed....
also, for years the older FIA paper shows only the mile speed....
??
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The FIM (the correct governing body for two and three wheeled vehicles) have acknowledged the World Record speed of Craig Breedlove, over the flying start 1 kilometre, on 13th October 1964 at 848.651 km/h {527.327 mph). It is in their 75th Anniversary record book (dated 1979), which is the final listing before the change was made to the calculation method and the lists started again.
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Interesting ...
The 527mph speed was on 15 October.
Also, 527mph was for the flying start kilometre. I thought the acknowledged record was the time/speed over the mile, a slightly lower 526.277mph. I don't have a copy of the 1979 record book to check.
Hot Rod Magazine for January 1965 states:
"Speeds on Spirit's last run had been 539 mph in the mile and 535 in the kilometer. Averages for the mile and kilo, which were the second set of new records for the week, were 526.88 mph for the mile and 527.33 for the kilo."
Interesting that a claim for the faster kilometre record was either not made or was denied by the FIM.
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Tricky Dicky - that faster kilometer speed not being publicized is not surprising. We had the same issue with The Blue Flame - 630.399 mi/h in the kilometer and 622.407 mi/h in the mile. The press and PR guys were constantly talking about the "magic mile" and other mile records. When The Blue Flame went faster in the kilometer, it was ignored in all the news accounts and press releases. Joe Petrali was upset when he saw what had happened, apparently ignoring the published results he had released with his FIA certification. Probably the same thing with Craig - and with the speed difference being so small he probably didn't care.
Malcolm, a speed claimed/certified/timed(?) by "two independent witnesses" is meaningless. Did they use stopwatches/hourglasses/GPS? How independent were they? Shadle had registered or copyrighted his own land speed record timing association. Were those the witnesses? Still very mysterious.
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Dick,
right, from 1904 on, there was a kind of association who tooks care for two and three wheeler.....
we had lots of discussion - from the view of LSR - if 1904 can be called the beginning of World Land Speed Records on two and three wheels....
today the year 1920 shows (what we call) the first official WLSR for a motorcycle.....there are three "records" listed from 1911 and 1914....set at Brooklands.....but under which regulations?.....before 1911 and up to 1920....lots of people and producers announced to be the world fastest.....
you understand the "confusion" with this date...
Well....the FIA changed over the years very often his name before it became FIA....so the FIM....
1979 was the year of the big freeze....record certification became a different base...but also a lot classes dropped complete out of list....as most of the classes became a new definition....
Craig Breedlove's SoA Three Wheeler didn't run under sidecar....the FIM called this categorie cyclecar.....
in 1976 this categorie still exist....as the freeze was 1979....
interesting is now......that in 1964 we had the situation...so as this record list shows....that we had the same records listed under FIA and FIM......
what me surprised...that the 1979 final status after the freeze....shows the 1964 records.......but they wasn't listed in a 1968 and 69 list.......!!!!
I got from Craig one of his 1963 certifications....for the 1964 records he had only the FIA certifications.....I don't know if he ever had an idea that also the FIM listed...or he simple forgot....
I have to ask Craig or Stanman about when I chat with one of them the next time....I'm interest to get more information about that.....
Ps. you wrote to the 1979 separate section "for historical purposes"......just thinking...could it be they added the 1964 just for that historical....!!!!!!!
Tom, I digress from the topic to address the sketchy origin of the FIM and its records list.
The thrust driven 3-wheelers caused some issues within FIM which they decided to put to bed, permanently in 1979.
The FIM was born from the F?d?ration Internationale des Clubs Motocyclistes (FICM), which itself was founded in Paris, France, on 21 December 1904.
The name was changed to the F?d?ration Internationale Motocycliste (FIM) in 1949, the same year that also saw the first race of the famed Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix. The headquarters were transferred to Geneva, Switzerland in 1959.
1994 saw the headquarters relocated, this time to Mies, Switzerland, and occupy its own building for the first time, shaped like a stylized motorcycle. The name was changed again in 1998 to the F?d?ration Internationale de Motocyclisme at the congress in Cape Town, South Africa. The same year, the FIM was given provisional status of recognition by the International Olympic Committee, and gained full status in 2000 at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney, Australia.
2004 marked the organization's centenary, and celebrations were held at the congress in Paris in October.
FIM Appendices for FIM World Records 2009, Appendix 018.4
THREE-WHEELER RECORDS MADE BETWEEN 1952 AND 1963
Sidecar records registered from 1st January 1952 to 31st December 1963 were made under regulations which have since been modified. At that time, no passenger or ballast was carried (see Art. 19, Appendix 01, Road Racing Technical Rules).
Due to the new method of calculation, introduced by the FIM TECHNICAL COMMISSION in JANUARY 1978, short distance records made prior to this date are absolute and therefore cannot be broken.
Consequently, these records are definite and cannot be broken. They are included in a separate section of the World Records Book (1979 Publication) for historical purposes only.
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Spirit of America
The FIM book could have the wrong date but it is printed as 13-10-1964 in the European manner. The FIM give three decimal places with no rounding hence the 527.327 mph for the kilometre. The Hot Rod magazine figure is rounded to two decimal places - 527.33 mph. The FIM does not list any mile speed in their booklet.
Primacy of mile over the kilometre.
Has the longer timed distance of the mile just 'become' the often quoted speed? Both World governing bodies accept records for the kilometre and for the mile?
FIM 'age'
As has been shown, the front cover of the land speed booklet gives FIM years as 1904 to 1979, to get 75 years.
Malcolm, a speed claimed/certified/timed(?) by "two independent witnesses" is meaningless. Did they use stopwatches/hourglasses/GPS? How independent were they? Shadle had registered or copyrighted his own land speed record timing association. Were those the witnesses? Still very mysterious.
Gender record.
I have not seen any documents relating to the claim made to Guinness World Records, on behalf of Jessi. The claim was presented in the USA. GWR personnel confirmed that the speed of 522.783 mph was an average of two runs. These runs were 503.195 mph and 542.371 mph. Independent witnesses were not on the NAE team, nor was the Ed Shadle land speed organisation mentioned. Others have told me the speeds were measured from GPS positioning. I was not there to see for myself. A possible mystery that perhaps is best left.
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About timing at Alvord...
in 2016 the USFRA (Association from Salt Lake City - organizer of the World of Speed) had set up the 1 mile timing light system - two of the USFRA were there at the place...
can they count as independet witnesses?
in 2016 they also had a "state of the art" GPS system in use.....some kind of experimental GPS.....to my knowledge this GPS was also active 2019....
the video of Jessis fatal run showed at the five mile marker position (this is the center of the measured mile) the same trailer as the USFRA used in 2016.....
well...it was not confirmed...but to this video it looks that the USFRA had set up again their timing equipment as they done over the years.....
the proof for that can only come from the NAE team....also if the Guinness speed was maybe the speed over the kilo...that it could be compared to Kitty's speed....
days after the fatal run the NAE team had announced the higher speed (for the mile)....with the information....that this speed was given to Guinness to be certified as the new record....
too many questions.....not enough answers....and the people who could clarify didn't tell something......
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I don't know anything about any of this. But. I would think that a record speed expressed in miles per hour would more naturally be over a mile. If it is a kilo record then they might be more inclined to give the KPH speeds. Which here in the USA would just confuse most people.
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Rich, something in me just wants to go 550kph. The equivalent mph seems so slow :wink:
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I apologize pork i did not realise you where talking about jessi driving the car at alvord. I still don't understand why ed would let someone else drive the NAE after spending all that money and time building the car. The thing is jessi never set or broke any kind land speed record in the NAE.
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Putting a female driver in it was all about marketing for sponsorship dollars.
Sid.
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Spirit of America
The FIM book could have the wrong date but it is printed as 13-10-1964 in the European manner. The FIM give three decimal places with no rounding hence the 527.327 mph for the kilometre. The Hot Rod magazine figure is rounded to two decimal places - 527.33 mph. The FIM does not list any mile speed in their booklet.
Primacy of mile over the kilometre.
Has the longer timed distance of the mile just 'become' the often quoted speed? Both World governing bodies accept records for the kilometre and for the mile?
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Apologies for continuing this slightly off-topic part of the thread, but someone has been kind enough to send me a photo of the relevant page in the FIM booklet.
So I see the 13.10.64 date which I understand to be incorrect. Craig set records on both 13 and 15 October that year, with the 4.242 second km being on 15.10.64.
It's very easy to make typing errors in these lists of dates, times and speeds, and the FIM and FIA seem to be no better at checking than the rest of us. Indeed, just a few rows above I can read that Don Vesco covered a mile in 7.391 seconds in 1975, which would be 487.079mph if correct :?.