Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: shiphteey on May 25, 2007, 11:14:12 PM
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Greetings everyone, haven't been on the board since BUBS last year. I just give my input and discuss w/other fellow riders/racers, especially the 200+ mph motorcyclists that ran that meet and have run prior meets (frame of reference).
I have ridden my zx12 at Maxton 9/05, 10/05, 3/06, 10/06, 3/07 and the last meet 5/07. From 10/05 until the present I have been a 199-202 mph guy, usually hovering right around those speeds. I am familiar with the Maxton shut down procedure because my speeds haven't changed much and I have attended several meets with minimal lapses between events. In fact, going through the traps is a bit of a walk in the park...
...that is until 5/07. I noticed it the first time I trapped actually but it didn't really sink in. I was busy grumbling about my low 194.7 mph pass. Went back out and ran 201.89....noticed it again (that pass was after Debbie had went down). The same thing....seemed like the shut down really funnelled closer together and much SOONER with respect to the distance between the left side cones and right side cones. Again...didn't think too much of it at the time...just remembered to stick the right knee out, shoulder out a bit, light press on the bars and look where I needed to go while slowly rolling off. I have gone through there enough know to feel very comfortable with my runs and shut down. My tolerance to "oh sh_t" type of situations is quite high. Hell just type my screen name into youtube.
And while you may not agree with some of the antics, I am a rider that is comfortable going bar end to bar end with riders over 186 mph with the occaisional lane split. I am a rider that experienced tankslappers and nasty weaves at 177 mph on GPS at the 9/10 in Florida but stubbornly decided to spray nitrous and trapped 193.9 unable to even stay in my LANE. I even participated in "Kings of the Street: Part 2" where I ran over 200 mph against a turbo Hayabusa over and over.
However, I am not just some street scrub. As you can see in the sig, I have participated in 3 LSR venues, all less than a year apart including the 9/10 in S. FL. I am a decent drag racer as well and do pretty well at track days aboard my 600cc bike which includes lots of knee scraping over the last 10+ events I have attended.
I would say with confidence that my ideas of "safe" may be looser than other riders, I can accept that. However, factoring that all in, I can say with assuredness that the cones were set up with SIGNIFICANTLY less width between them. I noticed while going through that I had to make a more concerted effort to not hit the cones on the left hand side. The normal human instinct is to trap somewhere in the middle so as to not be caught on "the wrong side" should anything unexpected happen, which, when I did, meant I had to make sure I stayed in the middle while negotiating the bend.
As motorcyclists, we know what happens when you slow down (roll off or brake) while cornering/turning a bike: IT RUNS WIDE, no way around it unless you are overcompensating with lots of body english or a bunch of countersteering (the latter being not so desirable given the speeds and Maxton's terrain). No one wants to overload the front and tax it of its ability to stick while simultaneously make the rear end too light! At 200+ mph on 2 wheels, you must smoothly reduce your speed and dial in the right amount of body steering or counter steering so as to not upset the bike.
I noticed that while going thru shut down I would end up closer to the left side of the cones than before. Again, it seemed to "funnel" up quicker than it has in the past. I thought it over and decided to stay in the middle. Had I tried to take the "out, in, out" line coming in from the left hand side I risked it funneling in too quickly. Trying to turn the bike more than I needed to with rough terrain didn't seem like the way to go. The other option would be to trap near the right side but I ruled that out because it forced running an overly tight line (in, in, in). If I wanted to not run it so tight, it would mean I would need to either steer back to the center (leftward) while simultaneously negotiating a right hand turn hoping I would end up near the center....didn't seem like a good idea at these speeds.
I spoke to other 200+ mph motorcyclists that had gone over 200 mph THEN AND AT OTHER MEETS and they felt the same thing. I knew they would. Not everyone was going as slow as 200-201.89 mph that weekend, and not everyone had track day experience like I did (hell Hayabusas and ZX-12s aren't exactly lightweight and agile sportbikes). Not everyone feels comfortable being on the razor's edge all the time or taking unnecessary risks which I admittedly am guilty of.
But the fact of the matter is the cones were undeniably closer together and I think cone placement should be further reviewed for rider safety. And not just an inch or 2. At these speeds that would be a bit hard to measure, sort of like "feeling" an extra mph. But it was enough to where it appeared to be SEVERAL FEET, maybe YARDS!
Looking forward to any other input on the matter. As always, I have a good time at Maxton and enjoy 99% of the people there.
Ali
#9314
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We're very fortunate to have Maxton. Those who know the history know how we got bounced around trying to find a venue before the Maxton/Laurinberg community showed us their wonderful hospitality (WAY before my association with the track). That said, it isn't perfect. When I win the Lotto (guess I should start buying tickets), I'll build us a straight track with a straight shutdown. Don't hold your breath.
So we continue to do the best we can with what we have. Joe and Keith have pavement repaired as funds allow, we use the cones to show the best available pavement, and the riders/drivers develop skills not needed at Bonneville. I'll take it!
I don't think Scott was complaining, but was pointing out the inherent challenges of mastering the Monster Mile. I guess every track has its idiosyncrasies, which is part of what makes racing, racing.
Dan
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Back in the early drag race days (for us old guys) the Santa Ana drag strip had a right hand turn after the traps and you had to take it, or a hell of a bank to launch you onto the airport side of the track. Saugas had a ditch at the end so they turned it around and ran toward the mountain, also a challenge. Paradise Mesa in So.Cal. was a down hill shut off and a guy to open the gate so you could cross the road at the end if you couldn't stop. Other tracks had their problems and each one had to be known by the drivers and riders, oh yeah, Saugas had barb wire fencing down both sides as well. A new rider needs to go down and look at the shut down are, thats the main reason SCTA has a rookie meeting at both of our venues and take these new people on a tour before the event starts so they have an idea.
Glen (with salt fever) :-o
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Ali and others.
When I went to Maxton last year my first pass was over 200 mph, then one pass later again about 200 then on the third pass I ran over 214 and found it easy for me (being new) to take the longer shutdown however many great and better riders at Maxton will take the short return road however with a bike that measured over 73" from axle to axle I found that it was the easiest place to get in to a 200 club in the states.
Scott is correct about the lack of traction at Bonneville and the ever changing ruts and dirt of El Mirage, what you folks have in NC is phenomenal and has awesome traction!! That little turn is not as bad as some people would like you to believe.
Take care riders and be safe.
John
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When I was first associated with Harley Davidson, in 1970 or 1971, I proudly showed my Harley to race-chief Dick O'brien, who kindly observed: "Well....I guess you have to run what you have...."
I prep' new Hogs for retail , 36 years later we have to sell "what we have"............ :wink:
BTW : we had a crate collapsing incident in the warehouse, the Deuce on the bottom , under a Fat-boy and a Screaming Chook Fatty had NO damage.....not light , but tough :-o :lol: :wink:
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Ali and others.
When I went to Maxton last year my first pass was over 200 mph, then one pass later again about 200 then on the third pass I ran over 214 and found it easy for me (being new) to take the longer shutdown however many great and better riders at Maxton will take the short return road however with a bike that measured over 73" from axle to axle I found that it was the easiest place to get in to a 200 club in the states.
Scott is correct about the lack of traction at Bonneville and the ever changing ruts and dirt of El Mirage, what you folks have in NC is phenomenal and has awesome traction!! That little turn is not as bad as some people would like you to believe.
Take care riders and be safe.
John
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Well I have to chime in here because My Friend'The World's Fastest' is being very Moddest!
I consider myself a Professional Motorcycle racer with Pro Lic. in a couple of different organizations.John and Michelle were Kind or Krazy enough to take me under thier Wing's when I started LSR Motorcyles just a few years ago.I saw them on the National Geograpic or Destcovery Channel special and I was Hooked! I learned Long ago if you want to be the BEST you Learn from the Best! From Freddie Spencer to George Bryce,and My Brotha John Noonan I have be thier students! I saw him go 212mph in a FLASH FLOOD RAIN STORM FROM HELL@ Bonnevile!
I would'nt even get out of the Truck"Michelle did that time" as it was UNBELIEVABLE! You could'nt see 10 feet in front of You,and I have 20/10 Vision in each Eye/Both!!! I consider myself pretty Brave/Crazy racer,and I don't think I would have made that PASS!!!! He's Got Ball's the size of Watermellon's! He's also one of The Smartest Racer's I have even had the Pleasure to Race with/against? I hope to see for myself just how FUN Maxton is in the Very Near Future!Now the Dust storms of El Mirage was a whole different story.....................
Kaz...........
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Kaz,
There are 26 days till the next Maxton race. That gives you enough time to get to NC. Come on, I want to see you run that Vrod :-D
Bill
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Kaz,
There are 26 days till the next Maxton race. That gives you enough time to get to NC. Come on, I want to see you run that Vrod :-D
Bill
Bill,
There a very few thing in Life I would Rather do then RACE!:evil:
I'm hoping to have the New bike ready by the end of the week?:wink:
I f so look for a Big Red Truck with a Snow plow on the roof Lost out in the sticks.
See ya soon,
Kaz............
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Kaz, the bike looks great......Scott Whitney will be
proud of you..............Best of luck
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Kaz, the bike looks great......Scott Whitney will be
proud of you..............Best of luck
bak189,
Your Too Kind! :wink:The NEW BEAST is on the dyno waiting for it final tune up. Then I Need try my hand at El Mirage ASAP before B-Ville :-o!Hope to see you there as Your expert advice is always Welcome 8-)
Thanks again,
Kaz........... :mrgreen:
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Glen's comment about the rookie orientation at B-ville is spot on and doesn't just apply to rookies. We always drive the course way past the 7 mile to at least the 9, just to see what the conditions are in case it is needed. We have had a chute failure only one time but that was not fun. It was the first pass of the year and just kind of a check-out pass. I was half-way through the last mile when I heard and felt a bang and the car briefly nosed over but then picked right back up with no apparent problem. But I said to myself, no something is wrong so I clicked off. I coasted to the 5 and 1/2 and threw the chute. Nothing happened. I kept trying but still nothing. I then went to the low speed chute (which we affectionately refer to as the "aw s**t chute) and still nothing happened. I was now past the 6 and 1/2 and still rolling pretty good. Started easing on the brakes at just past the 7. There were no more mile markers or graded track past the 7 but because we had earlier inspected to the 9 I knew that it was only soft and greasy salt to at least that point so no big rush to stop. We went back and looked at our tracks and I never locked up the brakes but the salt was so greasy on top that it would build up in front of tires and then force the rear end sideways to get by the hump of salt. That happened about 6 times before I got stopped. One other thing, we went out the back door at 319 and the car doesn't slow down very quickly so it was kind of exciting for a while. It turns out we hit a hole and knocked both chutes out at the same time. That caused a failure of the attachment mechanism and left both chutes lying in the middle of the track. Needless to say we changed the design. No problems before or since but my advice is always check out way farther than you think you will run.
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Going along with my earlier remarks and Richards it is also important that the crews be at the drivers/riders meeting at Bonneville. We have push vehicles get lost every year and they need to know the layout of the entire venue. The CB radio is the only way we can contact the push vehicle and is very important you have a good one, not a hand held.
The salt is a big place and we have contact with our stewards all along the courses and turn out area that tell us where your vehicle is.
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Many of us could believe that landspeed racing deserves better, and it does. If we could guarantee NASCAR size crowds, and NASCAR level of "factory" participation, does anyone doubt that we would have access to 500 foot wide tracks with a 10 mile length?
There is a seven mile paved track in Texas, it just happens to be an oval :(
IIRC, GM ran the EV1 there as well though, and went just as fast. It's a tire testing track for semi's mostly and has a pretty steep bank to it.
I can't find a picture of the track online, and it's been years since I've seen it.
They seem very friendly to GM there, based on a number of records set by GM vehicles over the decades.
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RELAX
LSR is and never will be a spectator sport like a NASCAR or NHRA.
Look at the competition and pace of a Drag Race and the changes they are making to make it attractive.
90% of the field doesn't generate enough to get beyond a support role and at anything less than a major event, the crowd consists mainly of participants and friends. :wink:
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There is a seven mile paved track in Texas, it just happens to be an oval :(
It's a nine mile circle.
www.ara.com/offices/testing_pecos.htm (http://www.ara.com/offices/testing_pecos.htm)
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There are a number of like facilities around in the US.
For example, Honda owns one in So Cal we have used for Hi speed bikes over 200mph a number of times, and they now own the Ohio testing facility built by the Feds.
The FIM has conducted World Record Endurance events at the proving grounds in Laredo Texas.
The longest paved straight surface that is suitable for some things is the 17k ft concrete runway at Edwards AFB.
It is groomed, unlike most other landing surfaces, and has permanent survey markers in the middle kilo and mile.
It has been used for LSR testing before.
The dirt alignment that was formerly used as a landing surface, early in the Space Shuttle program, before the chutes and brakes were perfected, is 14 miles. :wink:
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Slight correction - the Ohio Transportation Research Center (TRC), now owned by Honda, was NOT built by the Feds. It was built by Ohio State (not sure of the source of the funding). I spent 3 summers of my life there, doing the Federal Test Procedure (FTP) for both highway and city fuel economy on the road. All this for the US EPA. The track happens to be 7.5 miles around - the FTP city test - 7.5 miles. A happy coincidence. There are also skid pads, block roads, inclines, etc. It's quite a facility. I also used to work for Chevy at the Milford PG - talk about a test track! But their high speed track is "only" 3.5 miles, as I remember.
Just some test track trivia.
Dan
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There are a number of like facilities around in the US.
For example, Honda owns one in So Cal we have used for Hi speed bikes over 200mph a number of times, and they now own the Ohio testing facility built by the Feds.
The FIM has conducted World Record Endurance events at the proving grounds in Laredo Texas.
The longest paved straight surface that is suitable for some things is the 17k ft concrete runway at Edwards AFB.
It is groomed, unlike most other landing surfaces, and has permanent survey markers in the middle kilo and mile.
It has been used for LSR testing before.
The dirt alignment that was formerly used as a landing surface, early in the Space Shuttle program, before the chutes and brakes were perfected, is 14 miles. :wink:
JackD,
THAT SOUNDS VERY COOL! Got any Hook Ups for a little R&D Testing out there? :evil:
I need a little more seat time before the Next Race :wink:.
As always Your The Man :-D!
Kaz............ :mrgreen:
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The Ohio facility was funded by a grant from the Feds and built to their specification by the State of Ohio.
All of those facilities are available at a standard rate they set.
When we did the testing of all the bikes at the Honda facility in So Cal, a Honda was never the fastest, but credentials and money prevailed.
Honda did however test other brands on their own for comparison as is common in the industry.
Edwards is an R+D facility that is outside the restrictions you find on any other FAA certified location.
Business is business. :wink:
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The Ohio facility was funded by a grant from the Feds and built to their specification by the State of Ohio.
All of those facilities are available at a standard rate they set.
When we did the testing of all the bikes at the Honda facility in So Cal, a Honda was never the fastest, but credentials and money prevailed.
Honda did however test other brands on their own for comparison as is common in the industry.
Edwards is an R+D facility that is outside the restrictions you find on any other FAA certified location.
Business is business. :wink:
OK :? So How Much :oops:?
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MUCH
Why don't you call them ? :wink:
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Jack's right - 'tain't cheap. They are aimed at corporate clients, although I did see a race team there when I was at TRC. It was a LONG time ago, and I don't remember who, but I think it was a SCTA team. Someone with a LOT of money, though.
Just to add to the creep-out factor - when I was going there (TRC), they were running a crash sled program, using real, human cadavers! I guess they have to learn this stuff somehow, but YECCCHHHH!! The security guards told stories of 'em sitting around in wheelchairs in a big cooler.
With the Big Three in financial trouble, I wonder if their PGs will be rented out now? Or maybe they already are? When I worked at Milford, NOBODY got in w/o proper credentials, and only GM programs were run. But that was high tides and green grass. Nowadays, not so much.
Later
Dan
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MUCH
Why don't you call them ? :wink:
I Wish I could,but racing a Harley without any support is EXPENSIVE!
I to poor to pay attention these day's,but was hoping maybe you knew if any of them needed a Test Rider? I'm pretty Good at R & D'ING Stuff
:wink:! Whats the Number I'm available from some Torture Testing :-o!
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I am the only SCTA member I ever knew to be there, but it was certainly not to represent them. :wink:
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How else can a Starving Racer make little Money :?? I Don't care about getting Rich I just don't want to go Broke doing what I LOVE :cry:.....
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A quote from a well known LSR type was "I am already famous, now I want to be rich." :wink:
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" I am already rich.......am now working on becoming famous"
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" I am already rich.......am now working on becoming famous"
OK You WIN :-o!
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A quote from a well known LSR type was "I am already famous, now I want to be rich." :wink:
Jack,
I thought the line was " I am already famous now make me rich"
DV
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A quote from a well known LSR type was "I am already famous, now I want to be rich." :wink:
Jack,
I thought the line was " I am already famous now make me rich"
DV
Your Both my Worlds Fastest Brother :wink:!
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A quote from a well known LSR type was "I am already famous, now I want to be rich." :wink:
Jack,
I thought the line was " I am already famous now make me rich"
DV
He may have used a simular line on other occasions.
I am speaking of the time he spun around on his heels as the headed for the door at Suzuki, 30 years ago.
I think you had to wait in the car. :wink:
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A quote from a well known LSR type was "I am already famous, now I want to be rich." :wink:
Jack,
I thought the line was " I am already famous now make me rich"
DV
He may have used a simular line on other occasions.
I am speaking of the time he spun around on his heels as the headed for the door at Suzuki, 30 years ago.
I think you had to wait in the car. :wink:
8-)