Altered Frame

[landracing]

Altered Frame - Special Construction Rules
 
 "A Special Construction Frame is unlimited in design..."
 
 This is really got me and another racer questioning the "limits" they are putting on the class to be legal for it.
 
 1. Gas Tank 1.32 gallons or less
 2. Seat height below the rear tire
 3. Foot Rests within 6 inches of rear axel.
 4. Wheel base over 68 inches
 
 First off the fuel tank capacity should be up to the engine builder, if some run alcohol or nitro they will use twice or more fuel then what a gas bike would use. So why limit it? Some people could come with bikes making 600-700 hp and may need to have larger tanks of fuel to accomodate the hp levels.
 
 Seat height rule should also be up to the bike builder, maybe his aero package he wants to use has him in a higher sitting position. Again you are limiting the person from being innovative or building a custom bike for a "Special Construction" This goes for the foot rests rule also.
 
 This also falls along the lines of wheel base. Short wheel base bikes have been just as successfull as long wheelbase bikes. Again this should be up to the bike builder and also could be part of their aero package for a shorter wheelbase. Why limit.
 
 If special construction is what they want, then make it VERY SIMPLE and make a special construction A class bike be a CUSTOM CHASSIS. This will eliminate and put them in a class by themselves without any question....
 
 Please comment.
 
 Jonathan

[JackD]

Jon
 I am curious.
 What input to the rules was taken to the bike community ?
 Was it a show of hands ?
 What was the count ?
 Where and when did it happen ?
 Bikers don't like meeting very much and will often vote with their feet.

[Larry C]

I have not seen the rules so I hope this is not a dumb question; does the new altered frame rule apply to sidecar? Several years ago we set a record with a sidecar streamliner uder SCAG1300. At that time the altered rules applied to sidecars. Now there are only two classes, SC and SC Streamliner. My old record is listed uder SC as are all sidecar records, special contsruction or not. I would like to se the altered class back for sidecar builders who want to inovate, i.e. kneeler chassis, roadrace sidecars etc.

[bbb]

1. Gas Tank 1.32 gallons or less
 2. Seat height below the rear tire
 3. Foot Rests within 6 inches of rear axel.
 4. Wheel base over 68 inches

does all four criteria need to be met or does just one of these put the vehicle into the SC class?
 
 

If special construction is what they want, then make it VERY SIMPLE and make a special construction A class bike be a CUSTOM CHASSIS. This will eliminate and put them in a class by themselves without any question....

exactly.

[dwarner]

does all four criteria need to be met or does just one of these put the vehicle into the SC class?
 *************************
 The posted rules indicate that 3 of the 4 must be met.

[bbb]

gotcha. thanks.

[Marcroux]

Just wondering, who came up with these rules for bikes? Was it ran passed the racers for comment?

[JackD]

Side cars should be side cars, not solo bikes with tag wheels.
 Their is no insurance prohibtion against having a monkey if the appropriate safety rules are met.
 The privilage was abused by some enclosed types that would have trapped the passenger in the event of an up set. The problem was they did not understand the requirements for the occupant if they remain aboard during a crash.
 You may never get back to having a passenger but at least you could get back to a real sidecar.
 I think if LarryC was to prepare some appropriate rules taken from other forms of racing, real sidecars might be more a part of the program like they used to be and maybe even grow.
 LarryC has been doing it a long time and if he has questions about sidecars, it must be really tough on a new entry.

[dwarner]

Just wondering, who came up with these rules for bikes? Was it ran passed the racers for comment?
 ****************************
 And how would that work? If you have a couple hundred people providing input to rules making how many different interpetations would result from a single item such as chain guard for instance?
 
 There are several different places on this site where the rules have been discussed, the 2005 changes are posted. The thread on tires for instance resulted in a rewrite of that section before the rulebook went to print.
 
 There is a procedure in place to provide your rules change request, people to contact with your ideas and club reps to provide representation for you. Heated discussion on message boards does not generate good teamwork between officials and racers. Veiled comments degrading the volunteer officials who provide the ways and means that allow you to safely race at World renown venues also does not result in a warm and fuzzy environment. We have lost many good people over the years as a result of their efforts being dismissed by negative attitudes.
 
 You have a better idea? Let me know, I'm available to listen and work with you.
 
 Dan Warner
 Rules Chairperson
 Records Certification
 SCTA/BNI

[JackD]

The access to listen has been the problem.
 Fuzzy enforcement has been the worst offender.
 Not much is veiled when all of the people are known to each other.
 A meeting will produce the same results and the vocal ones will be and the quiet ones will be.
 This format serves to highlight a problem as well as a solution.
 The level of thoughtful response from both sides will produce the measure of success.
 A poke in the riba is sometimes very effective and should be used before ripping one out.

[gixxerfixxer]

When I saw the new rules I just though that this was the route I was going anyways. I'm not building a street bike that  I can ride on the salt...
 
   But yet it's seperation the modified bikes which you can be in by just by putting on an after market exhaust system on your bike...
 
  And last year all you had to do to a street bike was put on a small fuel cell to be altered....
 
 Soon it will be...
 
  I hope, based on a non production frame...
 
   That will be trully altered....

[JackD]

The freedom of expression available in the Class A bike rules should produce a faster package.
 The restrictions for the Modifieds should see them slower than Class A
 In some cases it does not.
 It sounds like the Class A bikes need some work.
 What better than to study why someone else is faster. Perhaps the allowed modifications won't work for you.
 Safety is getting closer but inovation has not been perfected yet.

[Marcroux]

Damm,
 My first message to this board since Jon got rid of Franklin and I piss off Dan Warner, SCTA rules chairperson. I sorry that Dan I was trying to understand how SCTA came up this set of rules. Most racing clubs post rule changes to their members and invited comments. I am not a member of SCTA, so I do not know if this was done. I agree that M class bikes should not jump a class to run  class A but all these rules did was screw up class A. If I offended you I apologize.
 Marc Roux

[bak189]

O.K. now that you are getting involved in sidecar racing with BNI. I need to put in my two-cents worth. In 1978 I wrote the sidecar rules for compt. RACING sidecars...not solo bikes with a bold on 3rd wheel.
 However, todate the class has become another way to collect records by that bold on wheel.  Lets get back to the thru spirit of the class...RACING sidecars complete with passenger.

[JackD]

Bob was too old to be a monkey in 1978, but had no trouble filling the spot.
 My favourite was not the fastest, but the real racing HD rig that showed up once.
 As good as the bike safety record has been, the racing side car, even with a passenger, is best.
 Nothing scares me about a solo bike, but put a tag wheel on it and I don't want to go any faster than I can run.
 I guess the reason we don't see any fast one is because the slow ones collect records too.
 Real side cars were pretty well difined, getting away from that did not serve them well.
 The only suggestion I had was the driver should demonstrate they could be accomodated in the hack to guarantee a minimum size.
 It's time to get them back, let's hope they have not gone too far.