Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Rick Roberts on March 16, 2007, 08:21:48 PM
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Who has the record for the fastest sit on gas bike. Looking at the Bonneville records it appears to be Rick Yacoucci at 220.553. Dave Owens bike has been over 222 at Maxton :-D but has anyone been faster?
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Amo , Noonan and others look like "sit on" bikes to me, but what do I know about two wheelers. Also note that Rick Yacoucci has gone well over 100 MPH faster by adding two more wheels.
DW
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Rick's record is only the 5th fastest in the 1350 class.
ECTA
8-B APS/BF-3000/4 Yancy Racing Lee Shierts Sep-05 252.178
Bonneville
1650 APS-BF John Noonan Racing Suzuki 10/04/06 246.818
El Mirage
1650 APS-BG John Noonan J. Noonan 11/02 232.311
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Rick Roberts: If you are talking about gasoline with no power adders, you are correct. (But we are working on it :-D).Dean: You missed the highest record of all, the Yancy-Shierts 260.1 at Maxton. John Noonan is the fastest at Bonneville at 252.8 which is the official FIM record set at the BUB meet. The turbo records were set with gasoline but cannot be compared to N/A records. Great accomplishments all.
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My bad, I included power adders.
DW
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then theirs the fella who went 265mph at Elvington on a sit on street legal turbo busa last year.
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Rick's record is only the 5th fastest in the 1350 class.
ECTA
8-B APS/BF-3000/4 Yancy Racing Lee Shierts Sep-05 252.178
Bonneville
1650 APS-BF John Noonan Racing Suzuki 10/04/06 246.818
El Mirage
1650 APS-BG John Noonan J. Noonan 11/02 232.311
hay fella`s dont forget that there is another venue on the block, also:-
Gairdner
1350 MPS/BF John Noonan 235.740 06
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Sorry Folks, I was looking at the record for the fastest NA gas bike. I know there are several turbo or blower gas bikes faster than Dave Owen at 222, but I was looking for NA gas.
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Larry and BBB, I was at Maxton and saw Lee run the 260 on Rich's bike. Very cool. I have mentioned that pass here in the past, along with the 265 of the Flying Dutchman and I got several less than positive replies from folks who were not very happy to accept the fact that someone could go faster than the current record at Bonneville at another track. There are alot of people who think that if it didn't happen at Bonneville, it doesn't count. Glad I'm not the only one who remembers these racers and their FAST accomplishments.
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Sorry Folks, I was looking at the record for the fastest NA gas bike. I know there are several turbo or blower gas bikes faster than Dave Owen at 222, but I was looking for NA gas.
TRAMP III on NITRO :mrgreen: WENT 239 or there abouts back in the day....... :-o
that is FLYING ON A PUSHROD V-TWIN
Parabellum-Faired Bub/S+S Tramp III went 239 mph. This is a pushrod twin with a single carburetor!
:? :? :? :?
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Rick,
I think the problem is not that records can only be set at Bonneville but, that certification of records at other venues is sometimes suspect. I didn't do the research but, I seem to recall that the Dutchman record was set with a short timing trap and not an average of two passes.
There are other items that can be looked at with any record. We can be sure at Bonneville that the traps are accurate and the timing is the best that can be done on a given day.
DW
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Rich's 260 is a record. Although Maxton does not require a two run average the Yancy bike has made more than a dozen runs over 250. That in itself should eliminate any doubt about timing discrepancies. The NHRA by mandating large wheel discs after the Steve Johnson brouhaha tacitly acknowleged that the front wheel sometimes bounced over the timing beam and the body then stopped the clocks. Regrettably they have not thrown out the bogus speed record that resulted. The Flying Dutchman has a fast motorcycle. However: HE WENT 265 WITH A 40 MPH TAILWIND. His return run was 228. He has never approached that speed again. Stock Busas were timed at 210 that same day, 20 mph faster than usual. Wind aided times are not allowed in track & field either and we are only talking 25 mph max. Hell, Bonneville used to be three runs; try that on nitro. :evil:
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Rich's 260 is a record. Although Maxton does not require a two run average the Yancy bike has made more than a dozen runs over 250. That in itself should eliminate any doubt about timing discrepancies. The NHRA by mandating large wheel discs after the Steve Johnson brouhaha tacitly acknowleged that the front wheel sometimes bounced over the timing beam and the body then stopped the clocks. Regrettably they have not thrown out the bogus speed record that resulted. The Flying Dutchman has a fast motorcycle. However: HE WENT 265 WITH A 40 MPH TAILWIND. His return run was 228. He has never approached that speed again. Stock Busas were timed at 210 that same day, 20 mph faster than usual. Wind aided times are not allowed in track & field either and we are only talking 25 mph max. Hell, Bonneville used to be three runs; try that on nitro. :evil:
I can assure you that when it took three runs to set a record, it was a lot harder. Our Lakester had qualified and made the "down run" four times over 200 MPH before we made the "return run" without Murphy getting us. It was well worth it. I got into the club @ 221.183 with 60 ci. and a little nitrous. :-D
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Wanna hear a funny or 2 or 10 ?
SCTA has a whole season of events every year with no backup run required.
They run for class records and season points.
While the timing may be accurate their is no independent verification or hands off operation of the system .
One of the members even set the minimums and then got # 1 on a sorta bike without any oversight.
Another one of the more famous riders set his record with a 22mph tail wind and they affectionately call it "El Mirage Horse Power".
Does anybody remember the day when the SCTA 1/4 mile clocks were set up 100ft. too long at Bonneville ?
Try and qualify against that.
The English and Auzis do talk funny now that I think about it.
Humm, I wonder ?
"A flat statement without exception is most often just flat."
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You tell them Jack. :roll:
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Well said Jack...Kaz any pushrod (are there any other kind) Harley over 200 is flying. People like George Smith at S&S or Carl Morrow at Carl's Speed Shop who could make a nitro harley live at Bonneville are awesome tuners, no doubt. Even today, Timbo Wilson's 213.193 record and 217.945 one way pass on the NRHS 1650 pushrod (nitrous not nitro) Buell is flying.
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Rick,
I'm pretty sure all of Aarons runs above 210mph were done on Nitro. He'll probably chime in to correct but I know he spent a lot of time and dollars getting that nitro thing figured out. Don't know how many have records above 200 with both nitrous and nitro. Thread hijack maybe. Figuring out gas is hard enough at bonneville. :-o
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Rick, thank you for the comments. Madduck is right, we've moved to nitro, hence the increase in speeds.
I played with the nitrous tuning a lot, broke a lot of pistons, found what did and didn't work, with lots of good help from people who had already been down the path. But eventually I convinced myself that I had everything out of it that I knew how to get, making more power with it only broke pistons sooner and I had exhausted my bag of tricks attempting to take it farther.
So we went to nitro this last year. Very much a learning year, and we were conservative on the percentage, but already the bike is significantly faster. There's more, I'm still very much learning the limits of this stuff and what it wants. I don't know if I'll ever get up there where Tramp III was, but we'll work toward it and see what we can do. I want to take baby steps though, do it safely. It'd ruin my day if someone got hurt. Plus I don't want to break more stuff than necessary along the way. We hurt one piston at Bub's, and then broke the crank at WOS. As one of my friends and sponsors put it, when you play with nitro you're petting a mean dog. He's growling at me!
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NITRO is a BIG slow push that is best suited to the HD design.
Nitrous makes things happen faster and likes the UJM style of power.
"Don't date out of your species." :wink:
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Sorry Guys I thought you were running nitrous. My mistake. Anyway you have a very fast and good looking bike no matter what fuel you are using. Best of luck this year.
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Thanks, Rick, we'll give it our best!
Jack, yup, you're exactly right. It's really a pressure & heat problem. The slow burning fuel likes the long stroke, low rpm motor, keeps the peak pressures under control.
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A funny thing happened when I was getting the bike ready for Bub's.
I was late, as usual, pulling it all together, because the new fabricated stainless steel fuel tank took longer than expected, then my first shot at the whole fuel system didn't work and I had to rethink the plan, then it took awhile to find a fuel return pump that would hold up to the nitro, etc. By the time I got it all sorted out, I only had a few days left to tune it up before we had to pack up and head to the salt. Keep in mind I had never played with methanol or nitro before at all. I had read everything I could get my hands on, and talked to lots of people, but that's all.
So I finally get the thing on the dyno. I set it up on on straight methanol, using the smallest jet that came with my nitro carb which is still a little too big for straight methanol by my calculations, I tune the thing up, and it's making real good power, better than it ever did on gasoline. All is well. Time to put some nitro to it and see what it'll do.
I make the appropriate jetting and timing changes, mix up some nitro at a safe but significant percentage that should give a 40% or so boost in power, do a nitro pull, and the computer crashes. Damn.
3 hours later, after getting another computer and installing all the software, I'm ready to try again. Everything works, but the damn thing just doesn't make much power. I fiddle with it, get my arms around the jetting and timing, but I'm getting maybe 10% more power than I did with straight methanol. WTF?
The next few days is a mad scramble of trying stuff. I overnighted in a fancy and expensive ignition system. Same thing. I talk with everyone I know, nobody has any ideas. Finally I go back to straight methanol. It's way down on power from where it was when I started. Ah-ha! I run leak down tests, no problem. I pull heads and look around and make measurement. No problems. I check for wet sumping. Everything's perfect. The damn thing just won't make power and I have no idea why.
Finally I get to the last night before I have to leave for the salt. I'm stumped. I finally just say the hell with it, let's put more nitro to it and see what it does. I put as much to it as I think I can get away with given the compression ratio and the jets I have. I do one pull, it makes decent power, still 10% or so BELOW what it used to make on nitrous. I decide to take it to the salt anyway and see what it does and see if I can't learn something.
Well, the bike is fast, noticeably faster than it ever was on nitrous. Once we get the gearing right, with a little tailwind we run 217.9, 10mph faster than we've ever run. We bag a record at 213. Then we try to put just a little more nitro to it and we hurt a piston. We had the thing right on the edge already. Overall a very succcessful event for us, and we definitely learned a lot about the nitro.
I know that there's no freakin' way the bike should've gone that fast on that much power. I rationalize it by telling myself it's a load sensitive fuel and the dyno's not loading it enough to make it work. But in the back of my mind, I don't buy it.
About a month later, I'm tuning a customer's bike, and the SOB just won't make power. It's a combination I'm familiar with, and I knew how much power it should make, but this thing is just WAY down. I run all the checks, everything is fine.
Suddenly a light bulb came on. When the computer had crashed and I replaced it, I reloaded the dyno software. One of the things the installation software asks you is the dyno model. My dyno is a dual-roller kart/atv dyno with a motorcycle kit. What if I had told it I had a motorcycle dyno? Te dyno works by just timing the spin up of the drum. The motorcycle dyno has a smaller, single roller drum. If the software thinks I have a motorcycle dyno, all the readings will come out low!
I reloaded the software, and like magic, the customer's bike was making the power it should.
In the end, it worked out well. If not for the mistake loading the dyno software, I would've come out to the event too conservative on the nitro. The mistake forced me to push it right to the edge, farther than I intended, and I learned that much more as a result.
Now to just get it to the next level. But safety has to come first. This stuff is downright dangerous at higher percentages.
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Way Nitro don't speak no Dyno.
Build it strong enough, run it soft enough, then sneak up on the % for a real ride.
Do you know why the air cooled TF cars run so rich they flame out the pipe ?
What happens if they don't ? :wink:
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A funny thing happened when I was getting the bike ready for Bub's.
I was late, as usual, pulling it all together, ......... I run all the checks, everything is fine.
Suddenly a light bulb came on. When the computer had crashed and I replaced it, I reloaded the dyno software. One of the things the installation software asks you is the dyno model. My dyno is a dual-roller kart/atv dyno with a motorcycle kit. What if I had told it I had a motorcycle dyno? Te dyno works by just timing the spin up of the drum. The motorcycle dyno has a smaller, single roller drum. If the software thinks I have a motorcycle dyno, all the readings will come out low!
I reloaded the software, and like magic, the customer's bike was making the power it should.............
Great story and a good lesson there for any of us. Glad it worked out and congrats on the record.
Who's/what kind of dyno are you using??
Thanks,
Sum
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Tuning an engine and making a foto seem to run a similar route. Many times
I learned a lot from my mistakes.
Seems the dyno lesson was like the darkroom.
FREUD
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Now to just get it to the next level. But safety has to come first. This stuff is downright dangerous at higher percentages.
Huh. I thought the dangerous part was breaking a clique member's record.
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Huh. I thought the dangerous part was breaking a clique member's record.
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If you think there is a clique you are obviously not from CA... :roll:
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Clique was probably a poor choice of words. I herewith revise it to read "breaking the wrong person's record." This in reference to the notorious mystery of cause and effect for a rule change to OEM cases only in M and after market cases restricted to A.
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And just one of the the stupid parts of the Clique and Clack show is the target cases are legal in Production and Modified now with several different HD clone brands on the market. :roll:
"Rules without reason are unreasonable."
"Rules without oversight will soon be out of sight."
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Who's/what kind of dyno are you using??
Dynojet model 168/188. Still running Winpep 6, haven't upgraded to 7.
And just one of the the stupid parts of the Clique and Clack show is the target cases are legal in Production and Modified now with several different HD clone brands on the market. :roll:
Aaaaargh! There goes my blood pressure again! You know what a hot button that issue is for me. Damn that was an expensive rule change. Did not see it coming at all. Costed me a BIG pile of money, because it obsoleted a bike I had built but hadn't even raced yet!
Why the !@#$ can't a sanctioning body PUBLICIZE rule changes they're considering and solicit input and comment? And why the !@#$ can't they give a decent amount of WARNING if they're gonna make a change that obsoletes someone's whole project? What would be so bad about that?
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Why the !@#$ can't a sanctioning body PUBLICIZE rule changes they're considering and solicit input and comment?
That portion of the sanctioning body who tinkled on some people's shoes may have no concept of their role to govern a motor sport on a level playing field. "They" became a law unto themselves. "How their system works" suggests their complete disdain for some competitors. "They" forget they serve the sport, and that sport includes currently active and, eventually, all future participants. The very arrogance of their decision to deny input and comment suggests "they" thought of some competitors as "the enemy." It's worse than than. "They" have it backwards. "They" work for all competitors. Competitors do not work for them.
My gut feeling is that "they" watered down the MPS pushrod classes just enough to make them superfluous and now substantial and important work for the future will be in the APS pushrod arena. Special Construction may be the last level playing field for pushrod motors until "they" decide to screw that up too.
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Well they do have rules to that effect but the have been allowed to break their own rules with little or no effect.
Those days have to change or it will spell the end of the program. :cry:
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How 'bout "fastest sit-on naked/nonstreamlined motorcycle?" Where does that record sit or does the P/P with faired bikes confuse things?
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I know it wasn't in the sitting position but butt naked on Cheese's Triumph I went
85 MPH on my first pass.
There are fotos to confirm that.
Marcia also knows it's true.
FREUD
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Freud, that's not the bike with the soft seat post with the seat removed is it? I heard you had so much fun you could take your hands off the bars... :roll:
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I know it wasn't in the sitting position but butt naked on Cheese's Triumph I went
85 MPH on my first pass.
There are fotos to confirm that.
Marcia also knows it's true.
FREUD
LITTLE KNOWN FACTOID:
Marcia was faster too. :wink:
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yeah she did but wasn't butt naked, darn it. :roll:
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yeah she did but wasn't butt naked, darn it. :roll:
Are you sure ? :wink:
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The Rollie Free picture was a goodin but what 'yall are describing deserves an image. There have to be rules stating what body parts cannot dangle past the rear tire.
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Is topless included in NAKED classification?
FREUD
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FREUD, The topic wasn't the fastest old fart with gas, on a motorcycle. :evil:
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Back to the beginning of this post, has anyone been faster than Rick at Bonneville 220 or Dave at Maxton 222 on a NA gas bike?