Author Topic: oil scavenge  (Read 17544 times)

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Offline jdincau

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oil scavenge
« on: August 20, 2006, 10:10:09 AM »
Has anyone had any experience trying to scavenge multiple points from one scavenge pump stage? I am thinking that if one path sucks air the others will not see much vacuum.
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Offline edweldon

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Oil Scavenge
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 10:32:57 PM »
You're corrrect, Jim.  If one of several suction lines are pulling mostly air then nothing will be moving in the other two.  These dry sump pumps are all positive displacement gear type pumps.  That means that they pump a fixed amount for each turn of the gears (allowing for a little leakage back through the clearances when pumping against a pressure head). Air is a whole lot easier to move through a suction line than oil; so the pump will move air in favor of oil. I spent most of 7 years in my early mechanical engineering career designing gear pumps at Worthington Pump in New Jersey; so I got to know these things pretty well.
I don't have a lot of experience with dry sump systems; but it strikes me that if you have more than one suction line you better know what you're doing and have a successful formula to follow or you'll be in trouble.
Ed Weldon
Captain Eddie's Day Old Fish Market -- home of the Bonneville Salt Fish
Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.

Offline Bob Drury

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oil scavenge
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2006, 10:47:50 PM »
Ed, not to argue with you, but most pro stock drag race cars and a lot of sprint cars run multiple stage dry sumps with one stage drawing off of the valley/lifter areas.   The pro stockers are now running five and six stage pumps with no vacuum pumps as they are pulling up to 25 inches of vacuum from the pump alone.  Other than possible aeration, I think if you have a multiple stage pump, it might not be that big a problem.  Just my opinion, not facts by any means...............
Bob Drury

Offline desotoman

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oil scavenge
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2006, 11:06:50 PM »
Bob, I think you missed the point of the original question. If you have 5 stages of return pump and 5 return lines each going to one return pump stage there is no problem. But I think the question is if you have one return pump stage and 3 return lines, if one line sucks air will that be the only line to draw a vacuum, since it would be the path of least resistance. At least that is how I read it.
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Offline Bob Drury

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oil scavenge
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2006, 11:12:26 PM »
Tom, I see your point and agree, whatever thats worth ! :wink:
Bob Drury

Offline edweldon

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Oil scavenge
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 11:26:36 AM »
Good--you guys are teaching me some things.  Like I said; I don't have much experience with dry sump systems.
So you've got several stages, each one sucking a "froth" of oil & small air bubbles from a separate return line. They all discharge to a common outlet leading to an oil tank with swirls and baffles (or whatever you call them) where the air bubbles rise out of the oil.   Each stage draws whatever it can ,oil, air or a mix of the two and tries to pump it into the common outlet line running to that tank. If any one stage starts pulling a lot of air, say due to a leaking return line, it's not going to move much oil, sort of like a vapor lock.  If there is oil back down that return line somewhere, it won't move as long as the stage keeps sucking air.  Meantime all the other stages will independently move whatever oil they can into the tank.  
Now--have I got this right so far? ??..So now I'm the guy asking questions--
Looks to me like there is a place in or near the pump assembly where all the oil from each stage comes together before it runs up to the tank.  So I did a google search and came up with this schematic on the Brennan web site http://www.brennanracing.com/html/dsp_schematic.html
Sure enough, there's this little manifold on the outlet side of the scavenge stages where everything flows into one line that goes through the heat exchanger and filter and up to the tank.  At this point there has to be some pressure to get the oil to flow through the line and the filter to the tank.  It's this pressure that squeezes down the air bubbles and favors the flow of oil which doesn't compress.  Or looking at it another way??If a scavenge stage is trying to pump mostly air and build pressure against head of oil in the lines pretty soon the air will start leaking back through the pump clearances as fast as the pump can move it around it's pumping rotors.
So does this make any sense?  If so then maybe I'm starting to get the hang of these things??..
Ed Weldon
Captain Eddie's Day Old Fish Market -- home of the Bonneville Salt Fish
Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.

Offline Bob Drury

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oil scavenge
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 12:23:10 PM »
Ed, the only thing I would add is that most dry sump manufacturers do not recomend placing a filter on the scavenge to tank lines.  They recomend placing the filter on the pressure to engine side.  This doesn't include the coarser pan outlet filters such as the Moroso units that most guys use...................................
Bob Drury

Offline edweldon

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oil scavenge
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 01:19:43 PM »
Bob--
In their diagram these Brennan folks show a screen filter between the scavenge pumps and the tank and a fine filter on the high pressure pump outlet. The LSR guys I'm close to are ardun "nuts" and tend toward just "inspection" screen filters.  What's your take on the placement of the fine screen inspection filter on a dry sump system? (aside from the coarse pan outlet filters)  Without firsthand personal experience I'm guessing that these racing type screen filters are all good for upwards of 100 psi.
Ed Weldon
Captain Eddie's Day Old Fish Market -- home of the Bonneville Salt Fish
Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.

Offline Bob Drury

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oil scavenge
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2006, 05:28:00 PM »
Ed, I personally run a two stage Oberg, with the coarse filter at the inlet, which catch's all the silicon, grease rags, false teeth, etc.  I know some guys don't like screen type filters, but they show you "right now" if you have problems, and if you do, the best filter in the world won't fix it.  I run a six stage Barnes pump, and idle at l20 psi with my early olds. (believe me, it needs this kind of pressure!).
Bob Drury

Offline JackD

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 06:48:17 AM »
Instead of calling them multiple stages that suggests 1 stage feeds into another, you might call them segments.
Each segment is a separate pump that is designed to work independently of another and draw on it's own supply.
In a dry sump automotive system the common shaft will drive all if them together.
 The supply segment will also have a suitable relief valve that will limit the oil to a preset number.
The return segments need to be sized enough to carry all the return it is likely to see and oversize does not carry a big penalty.
The supply side , if it is too big for the demand will just bypass the excess oil and use up power that could otherwise get your ride down the road.
If you get a deal on one that is sized for a BBC and use it on a Honda, you might consider slowing it down with the drive ratio.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline Bob Drury

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oil scavenge
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 01:03:55 PM »
Jack, speaking of smelly feet, I hope you are back on yours.  The world ain't the same without your sweetness (or is that sweatiness?).
Bob Drury

Offline JackD

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CHECKED OUT OK
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 04:03:16 PM »
Quote from: Bob Drury
Jack, speaking of smelly feet, I hope you are back on yours.  The world ain't the same without your sweetness (or is that sweatiness?).


The medical team is the greatest.
 I spent a lot of time working on the kitchen quality and they showed at least to me some real improvement.
I have some projects related to LSR and people that will cause some pain and then we will be back racing with another generation. :wink:  
Jack
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Some general comments about dry sump systems and filters:
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 05:09:41 PM »
I thinkthat it is very important to put a filter on the scavenger pump(s) return line, and that filter should have the highest level of filtration, my suggestion would be at least a 10 micron (absolute) filter rating. This of course completely eliminates any of the present day automotive filters as they are, at best, 25 micron and probably closer to 40! The filter should have a clean filter pressure drop for 10 gpm of less than 2 psi. (This is pretty easy to find in the industrial filter field.) I pick 10 gpm because that is about the maximum flow rate that a pressure section can put out at 1/2 engine speed. In reality because the pressure section pressure control relief valve, that is the thing that you adjust to increase the oil pressure, is designed to dump the excess oil that does not go through the engine back into the pressure section inlet port.

So if you set your oil pressure to say 60 psi and that only requires that the pressure section pumps 6 gpm through the engine then the remaining 4 gpm goes back to the pressure section inlet port and this also means that no matter how many scavenger sections your pump has the total oil flow that they can pump back to the tank is 6GPM which of course means that most of what goes back is air. Air with its very low viscosity will pass through a filter at almost no pressure drop so that means that the back pressure developed by a return filter is completely based upon the oil flow and if you pick the filter correctly the pressure drop will be extremely small.

Why do you want the best filter on the scavenger line? Becasue this is where the most dirt and junk is. The small valley screens and inlet screens that may be on the scavenger inlets only catch the really big chunks, typically over 250 micron (amout ..010 inches) if you have chunks this big it is only becasue you didn't clean your engine enough when you put it together, you didn't deburr the block, you poured it in with your oil (never look at new oil out of a can through a microscope it will scare the sh-t out of you!) or you motor has blown up! Now the particles that you need to be concerned about are particles that are the same size or slightly larger than the minimum clearances that your engine will see, for instance rod bearing to crank throw clearance. This is typically set at say .0015 to .003 inch but when the engine is running, depending on the direction that the rod is being pulled or pushed that clearance can be as low as .0002 inch, that is 5 microns! Also the internal clearances of the pressure section of the pump are also in this area so you probably shouldn't pump junk through this section if you want it to live. I do feel that you should also have a filter on the pressure section before it goes into the engine, just to catch the parts of the pump if it happens to fail.

As you may remember I am not a believer in the Oberg screen filter but it you want to look at the "big chunks" that may be coming out of your engine you could certainly put one in front of the "real" filter on the scavenger return line. I talked to an engineer a Chevron one time and he said that the difference in weight of a brand new engine and one that is worn out is about 1/4 ounce of wear particles, so again if you suddenly see lots of big chunks your motor is probably junk.

If you look at the present day NASCAR oil systems you will see that they are now using some sort of industrial filter in their scavenger pump return lines before the oil tank. Just one more thing, remember that oil pumps like to PUMP not SUCK so don't think that you can put a filter on the inlet side of the pressure section to protect it from the junk that the scavenger pumps have put into the oil tank.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Bob Drury

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oil scavenge
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 07:25:26 PM »
One thing John Barnes mentioned to me is to keep the pump pressure inlet lower than the outlet from the sump tank.  As Rex said, the pumps like to push, not pull.  Weaver Bros. were the ones who do not recomend filters on the scavenge side.  I look at it like all of LSR racing, you listen to all the advice and make up your own mind.  If any of us had all the answers, we sure as hell wouldn't be pulling our hair out at Bville! :wink:
Bob Drury

Offline desotoman

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oil scavenge
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 07:44:59 PM »
Hair? What is that, I have not had any in 20 years!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.