Landracing Forum

Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: dickj on November 06, 2008, 08:44:53 PM

Title: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: dickj on November 06, 2008, 08:44:53 PM: Anybody know anything about these little blowers? I've got one from a 90s T-bird that i want to use on an "in-progress" V4F project. Mounted on the T-bird (as well as on all other OEM applications that I know of) they are run dry, strictly as blowers, feeding dry air from the throttle body to the EFI system.

I'm going to use a carburetor, and would prefer setting it up as a wet system, with the carburetor sitting at the intake where the throttle body is usually found. What effect will the fuel-air mixture going through the blower have? I know some of these blowers are used to produce after-market wet systems, but I don't know what modifications might have been made to the blower to accomplish this. After all, I'm just wanting to do with the Eaton what so many guys did in the fortys and fifties with 4-71s and 6-71s off of fuel injected diesels.

If need be, I can use it as a blower, with a boxed carburetor, but that old "97" really wants to be right up there on top.

DickJ
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 06, 2008, 09:35:03 PM: Contact Moss Motors - They've been selling a kit for MGB's, Sprites and TR-6's for some time. Their tech guys have been first rate.

Here's how it looks on my driver

(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN0805.jpg)

I don't know that there are any mods necessary to one that was designed to run EFI, but then I bought mine as a kit with the HIF44 SU.

Good luck, Dick!

Chris
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: NJ 03Mach1 on November 06, 2008, 09:49:30 PM: Quote from: dickj on November 06, 2008, 08:44:53 PM
Anybody know anything about these little blowers? I've got one from a 90s T-bird that i want to use on an "in-progress" V4F project. Mounted on the T-bird (as well as on all other OEM applications that I know of) they are run dry, strictly as blowers, feeding dry air from the throttle body to the EFI system.

I'm going to use a carburetor, and would prefer setting it up as a wet system, with the carburetor sitting at the intake where the throttle body is usually found. What effect will the fuel-air mixture going through the blower have? I know some of these blowers are used to produce after-market wet systems, but I don't know what modifications might have been made to the blower to accomplish this. After all, I'm just wanting to do with the Eaton what so many guys did in the fortys and fifties with 4-71s and 6-71s off of fuel injected diesels.

If need be, I can use it as a blower, with a boxed carburetor, but that old "97" really wants to be right up there on top.

DickJ

One of the reasons they use a "dry system" (fuel AFTER the blower) is Eatons have an issue with heating up. I would think that fuel & compressed air flying through the twin screw of an Eaton, plus being heated.. could make for some interesting fireworks if it were to detonate.

I could be wrong, but I would think.. there could be some serious issues...
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 06, 2008, 10:03:18 PM: Quote from: NJ 03Mach1 on November 06, 2008, 09:49:30 PM
One of the reasons they use a "dry system" (fuel AFTER the blower) is Eatons have an issue with heating up. I would think that fuel & compressed air flying through the twin screw of an Eaton, plus being heated.. could make for some interesting fireworks if it were to detonate.

I could be wrong, but I would think.. there could be some serious issues...
Caution is the watchword, and while I've never encountered a heat issue with mine, I'm only running about 6 lb's of boost. Be sure your pop off valve is functioning 100%. The install manual for the B does raise this issue. I need to keep a little choke on it until the engine is up to operating temp.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: NJ 03Mach1 on November 06, 2008, 10:16:44 PM: Now, another thing to thing to consider, (keep in mind I don't know your class rules or your budget) have you looked at a turbo setup with a blow through carb?

More efficient, doesn't take power to make power. Makes that power sooner then a blower and holds that curve a lot better. Also I would think, easier to to get parts for rather then mating a root's style blower to your car. Not to mention, getting a carb on it also
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: RichFox on November 06, 2008, 10:53:53 PM: GM 53-71-and 92 series blowers run dry in their intended use When guys tried putting them on injected diggers with just port nozzles they burned them up. So now some fuel is run through the blower to cool it. I wouldn't worry about running gas through the Eaton. I do think I would incorporate an SFI burst plate in the manifold.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on November 06, 2008, 11:18:25 PM: For starters you have an 18 year old supercharger. I would consider a rebuild.

The Eaton M90 was used on the Thunderbird and Cougar.
Rebuild and parts info.
http://thunderbirdinfo.blogspot.com/2006/05/eaton-m90-supercharger-rebuild-and.html (http://thunderbirdinfo.blogspot.com/2006/05/eaton-m90-supercharger-rebuild-and.html)
Other than the backfire problem, it will work fine as a wet application. This was designed for a 3-5 liter engine, so I would hope yours in in that range.
(http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_128485.gif)
(http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M90_graph.gif)
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: pookie on November 07, 2008, 02:15:34 AM: Hi Dickj, Shug and Irene Hanchard run a Eaton blower on thier V4F roadster, I believe they have the record. They are located in Yuciapia[sp] Ca. They call themselves "the so what speed shop". I think they will be at the next El Mirage meet. Very nice folks, easy to talk to. Buy a t-shirt from them, they run on a very thin budget, and Shug fabs up most of special parts needed. Over & out, Mike R.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: JimL on November 07, 2008, 03:28:20 AM: We have an M122 running at 14.3 psi on a 3.65 liter Toyota V6 (blowing through the NASCAR manifold). It uses six 750cc primary injectors, at the ports, and a pair of 1000's faced into the intake air stream in the Edelbrock throttle body. The secondary pair are used to cool the charge in the blower and manifold (when boost is high enough).

Seems to be ok, wet, ran 440+ @ 7200 during dyno tune up. had enough pulls to wear out a couple blower belts (we are at the limit for 6-row at that boost level). The best part about the blower was 150hp @ 1500 RPM! I'll have to find some more recent pics....these two were from early work a few years back (not a salt motor, just a street car).

Regards, JimL
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: panic on November 07, 2008, 09:40:08 AM: Re "doesn't take power to make power"

Nice rhyme, but I don't agree. The mechanical parasitic drag is absent, but the exhaust pumping loss is large. There is no "free power".
"Makes that power sooner then a blower"

Roots type produces boost almost immediately - far sooner than a turbo (unless the A/R is very small)
"holds that curve a lot better"

Not sure what you mean?
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: panic on November 07, 2008, 10:07:37 AM: The Ford 3.8 M90 is a bit less efficient than the flow maps posted, it's Gen 3. not sure how much worse.
As to carb size, running anything smaller than the original TB (60mm = 2.36" ID, about 725 CFM @ 1.5 Hg.") will reduce boost, reduce power and increase internal temperature. Roughly, you can estimate your carb size by the usual:
N/A CFM = displacement × peak power RPM × efficiency ÷ 3,456
Now multiple by the pressure ratio:
PR = (atmospheric pressure + boost) ÷ atmospheric pressure
E.g., at sea level and 10 psi:
14.7 + 10 = 27; ÷ 14.7 = 1.68:1
If this is for Bonneville and you have the same boost, your PR goes up, duh.
This gives the carb flow in CFM, but at a pressure drop higher than suitable for max power. This is a Holley-endorsed formula and it gives conservative results for typical V8 use, so I suspect it works near the standard 4 bbl. 1.5 Hg" pressure.

I'm not sure exactly what the Ford intake port looks like inside the case, but the transition from the TB area to the lobe entry is by far the hottest area (indicating a flow problem). I'm not sure if enlarging the port straight through will improve this at all, although the later Ford has a bigger port externally.
The easy part is the discharge - think shape, not size.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on November 07, 2008, 10:14:11 AM: Yep, panic is right on it. I posted the gen 5 because it's more useful than nothing. The later versions sealed better and had better numbers.

The conversation isn't about turbos, he already has the blower. There are pluses and minuses for both types. Some people just like blowers, or end up with something that has it already.

Any type of pressure is more fun than those poor normally aspirated dudes.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: panic on November 07, 2008, 10:21:30 AM: Here are some Ford M90 intake variants

Simple exhaust port mod
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 07, 2008, 07:00:17 PM: Quote from: NJ 03Mach1 on November 06, 2008, 10:16:44 PM
have you looked at a turbo setup with a blow through carb?

Correct me if I'm reading the rule wrong, but if Dick's running vintage tin, I don't think he's permitted to run a turbo on a vintage flathead four.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Morpheus on November 07, 2008, 08:06:43 PM: :cheers: Milwaukee, nice setup on your B.... methinks my TVR would like some of that !
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: pookie on November 08, 2008, 02:32:40 AM: Hey fellows, The guy asked for info on the ford blower on a V4F classification. Thats a vintage engine acording to the rule book,and a vintage class. NO TURBOS; its a model t A, or B engine. He can run mechnical injecters, NO electronic injection, the engine must run the flat head, head no overhead valve conversons, and the cam shaft must be in the stock location. Theres a lot of info on this thread THAT he can't use to answer his question. If he is newby, he will get all balled up with N/A info! over &out Mike R.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: panic on November 08, 2008, 09:50:36 AM: Depending on how your fabrication skills are, and how well developed your existing manifold is, you have a choice between blow-through and draw-through. Not to repeat the obvious but:
1. draw-through is slightly lower max boost, but lower charge temperature due to fuel atomization (and risk of explosion). Carb must be large - a 2" SU isn't really big enough but cheap and easy to adjust, Weber DCOE, Dell'Orto DHLA if your budget can stand it (these were used a lot on Corvairs). I'm not sure if the Ford TB intake is worth using as a donor since the bend at the blower entry is pretty restrictive (1994-5 shown here). The fab is going to be plumbing the Eaton triangular discharge port into your cylinder ports, so you have a change of size and shape as well as splitting the flow. The Ford outlet can be reversed IIRC.
2. blow-through allows a smaller carburetor (whatever size has been successful N/A). Can use an intercooler (but this won't do much unless you have >7 psi(?). If the current manifold/carb is good this may save some work and remove a variable. The usual problems of hat vs. box, fuel pressure balanced to boost, etc. all apply.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 08, 2008, 10:49:45 AM: Quote from: pookie on November 08, 2008, 02:32:40 AM
Hey fellows, The guy asked for info on the ford blower on a V4F classification. Thats a vintage engine acording to the rule book,and a vintage class. NO TURBOS; its a model t A, or B engine. He can run mechnical injecters, NO electronic injection, the engine must run the flat head, head no overhead valve conversons, and the cam shaft must be in the stock location. Theres a lot of info on this thread THAT he can't use to answer his question. If he is newby, he will get all balled up with N/A info! over &out Mike R.

Pookie, to your point, I think it needs to be a vintage body to require the period technology - and that's not clear from his post, but you are very likely correct - after all, he's trying to make a Stromberg work on it.

Dick, how much boost are you looking to run? I have no idea what a 97 flows, so Panic might be right - the Stromberg might be restrictive.

Although it sure would look cool! :-D
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 08, 2008, 11:03:57 AM: Stromberg 48's rated at 175 cfm but vary 167/182 cfm
97's 150 144/155
81's 135 130/142

My 'street' engine in the #1931 V4F/VGC used two 81's.

Mike
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: NJ 03Mach1 on November 08, 2008, 11:19:54 AM: Quote from: Milwaukee Midget on November 07, 2008, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: NJ 03Mach1 on November 06, 2008, 10:16:44 PM
have you looked at a turbo setup with a blow through carb?

Correct me if I'm reading the rule wrong, but if Dick's running vintage tin, I don't think he's permitted to run a turbo on a vintage flathead four.

That's why I said I didn't know his rules.. :oops:
------------------------------------------

As for the holding the curve question...

If you look at the power curve (dyno graph) where a blower builds boost (just as a #'s example) say from 2k-5k hitting max boost of say 8psi at 4800 creating max hp... A turbo, will hit max boost earlier, holding a higher hp for longer... but that's out of the question anyway, as someone pointed out it's not within his rules. :(

------------------------------------------------------------

And it's been proven time and time again. Turbo's are more efficient then blowers. More power, with less boost. The blower belt adding drag to the engine as more boost is created and belt slip = using power to make power.

Where as a turbo, it's simply (as your aware) air pushing air. Create more air, more air gets pushed.. it's less power to move a turbo (and more efficient!) for the simple fact as your not losing any through belt slip or drag as the RPM's get higher as well as the boost. Turbo is a constant..

Of course, this is a mute discussion as he can't use one anyway lol
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: RichFox on November 08, 2008, 11:57:02 AM: The car Dick is talking about is indeed a Vintage Coup with a V4F engine. The carburator he got from me is from a '41 Buick and appears larger than the Ford 97/81 type Strombergs. If it was a streamliner or Lakester Dick could use a turbo
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 08, 2008, 12:45:20 PM: V4F blower setup custom built for Bruce Geisler for his 4-Barrel Model A, which (as far as I know) is his only unblown vehicle.

The blower is a Magnuson and the setup was, if I heard correctly, not built by Gale Banks.

Pictures published by permission :-D

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Geisler/Geislerblower01.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Geisler/Geislerblower02.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Geisler/Geislerblower03.jpg)

Mike

OBTW, Pete Richardson is building a high-dollar V4F engine for his coupe and a similar blower is in the plans.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 08, 2008, 02:48:13 PM: Bean Bandits' blown V4F. Pictures borrowed from the Jalopy Journal.

Mike

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/BeanBanditsengine.jpg)

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/Beanbandits01.jpg)
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: ModelTSteve on November 08, 2008, 06:46:34 PM: Mike Stewart runs a turbo on his V4F lakester. The problem is head gaskets!
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: Stan Back on November 10, 2008, 04:02:26 PM: V4F engines are not limited to Fords.

In fact, a Dodge Fast 4 on its first time our had the Street Roadster rrecord for a few hours.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: panic on November 10, 2008, 04:18:57 PM: Have the usual mods been applied:
Extra bolts between the existing
Next larger size on all existing
Fine thread studs/nuts instead of coarse bolts
Stiffening beam above the head, drilled for head bolt pattern, if not possible to mill the upper head surface flat bears on spot-faced locations. This need not weigh much, if constructed as a triangular box - the height adds bending resistance.
Jacking screws etc. from frame
Clamps from above head to somewhere lower on the block. Some of these used wire cable and turnbuckles with bridges to span the sides of the block - you'd be surprised how thin a cable can be, and still exert considerable force - the tension load for a 3/32" 7×19 strand 36" long cable is 800 lbs.
Title: Re: Eaton Supercharger
Post by: RichFox on November 10, 2008, 05:16:42 PM: Quote from: Stan Back on November 10, 2008, 04:02:26 PM
V4F engines are not limited to Fords.

In fact, a Dodge Fast 4 on its first time our had the Street Roadster rrecord for a few hours.
Leave us not forget that the first V4F record at El Mirage was set by a Plymouth.