Milwaukee Midget

[Milwaukee Midget]

Thanks, Neil -

Yeah, that would likely cook 4 quarts in a big hurry.

The thing that would be critical, though, would be getting the drivetrain warm in a short period of time.

Maybe I'm being, as Fordboy likes to say, "optimisty", but if I were fortunate enough to get to impound, there's not a lot of time to warm things up in the morning.  I don't know that a 400 watt heater wrapped in vinyl will get things warm enough fast enough, and seeing as the Midget tends to run faster when it's hot outside, and after it's been run a few times, I need to account for that.

When Mark and I were in Indianapolis last month, I finally got to meet and chat with David Vizard.  I'm repeating myself here, but he has written the most complete tome on the A-series engine imaginable.  His recommendation was I need to be seeing about 220 degrees oil temperature for peak performance.  I'd like to get as close to that as possible when I launch. 

As to the rear end and the transmission, any positive temperature above ambient will help, but the warmer, the better.

[manta22]

Chris;

Yes, it takes longer with a 400W heater than with a 1500W heater but ruining the oil in the process is not a good tradeoff.

We used the patch-style heater on the dry sump tank of Bob Peckham's M8C back in the '72-'73 Can-Am days. We left the heater on overnight and the oil was toasty warm the next day. If you need to get the temperature up faster, put two 400W heat patches on. In the industrial line, those types of heaters are available with a built-in thermostat-- handy to prevent accidental over-heating.

A heating patch can also be used on the differential housing to warm up the rear end lube.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[4-barrel Mike]

Perhaps, Chris, you should go back and read your Ken Purdy, seems to me that wrote of a solution to this problem.  

Mike

[Milwaukee Midget]

Perhaps, Chris, you should go back and read your Ken Purdy, seems to me that wrote of a solution to this problem.  

Mike

Okay, Mike, you sent me to Wiki on that one. 

I do have a copy of the February 1965 issue of Playboy with Kim Novak and the Beatles interview.

Kate thinks I keep it because of the Beatles interview . . . 

[jimmy six]

A pad is fine. I've used on the bottom of the pan and on the sides. ( mcmastercarr) is a very good source. You need to put insulation pads over the heaters for optimum performance for the heater. More heat is lost to the atmosphere than goes to the engine metal. If your using a dry sump tank it is very easy to make pads. I learned about this by covering steam valves and piping in all the power plants I've worked.

Cover the entire length and width of the bottom of the pan if you can. I've had up to 2400 on the bottom and 300 watts on each side and never hurt the oil. In impounds the generator is the first think we do in the morning, in 20 minutes we start the car and still leave the generator/heaters on until we are ready to leave.

As for trans and rear gear oil consider Daytona/Talladega qualifying oil. Seem to work well there and only for 10 miles......good luck

[fordboy628]

I was at the classic car club and walked by the fridge.

You immediately came to mind so I snapped a shot of the fare on hand.

The old sages said you'd be most welcome to visit, talk classic English (cars) and share the brews.

Next holiday?
We don't really have wild animals walking down the streets, well not during working hours.

Ah yes!

A selection set I could wrap my mind around . . . . . . . .

Had a Newcastle "Cabbie" last night with dinner.     It's an import black English ale.    Tad more bite than I like, but tasty none the less.
 
Fordboy

[fordboy628]

Back in the 1980s, when I lived in North Prairie, wore a mullet and drove my first MGB through rain, sleet, wind and one of the coldest winters on record, I picked up a little magnetic heater that stuck to the oil pan.  You'd plug it in, and the grease would turn to oil.  Magical, although I doubt it ever got me close to operating temperature.

Possibly installing a 120 V, 1500 watt water heater element in the pan?

Midget,

As Neil pointed out, 1500 watts is way too much heating power for the volume of oil you need to heat.    It is also my experience that "water heater" type immersion elements don't work very well for the reasons stated.

On dyno installs/retrofits I've done, I've used a similar 1500 watt element (220v) to heat the water.    On the 3 gallon dry sump tanks, I've used a 400/500 watt low temperature 220v element intended to heat oil, from Watlow, if I remember correctly.    It takes about 45 minutes to pre-heat both the water & oil before initial fire up.

I think that the 400 watt Moroso pads, or something similar, with some insulation, will be the hot ticket for the oil pan.    Probably the same for the trans and diff because of the thicker cases/housings.
 
Fordboy 

[fordboy628]

Midget,

http://www.watlow.com/products/heaters/

 
F/B

[jacksoni]

Amazon (and I am sure others) sells several heating pads like the Moroso ones, much cheaper (get what you pay for I suppose) about which there are several comments from users about how hot they get, how fast things heat up, how they have been used "my old tractor stays cozy warm in the SSS neck of the woods and starts easily etc" (my paraphrasing, please excuse ) One for pan, one for trans, one for diff,.

Most people I see in line don't even warm the engine ( performance advantages aside, I think this is hard on the motor). Occasionally in impound you will see someone with car on jack stands warming engine, trans and rear (observe safety regs here).

Dry sump tanks can of course be heated but it does take some time with a couple gallons instead of few quarts, so just more time.

I think hot oil and engine, more or less cool water (can be some performance advantage here and maybe explanation for my observation about cold engines above). My system with dry sump and electric water pump and fans allows me to heat the engine in line to something decent oil temp and internals and then cool off the water for the run.

In all cases, it takes a bit less power to move around warm oil than cold. Though a dry sump by itself may not add power, there are features for some engines/types of racing  where it may be a benefit (g force effects on oil supply for instance- not an issue in LSR) but the circumstances being discussed here may be one of them. As MM has pointed out though this is a big engineering (space) and $$$ issue that he has hesitated to make the leap. My engine does not have the ability to run a sump and internal pump so I had no choice but the $$$$/hp equation rears its ugly head.   

[Milwaukee Midget]

Chris;

Yes, it takes longer with a 400W heater than with a 1500W heater but ruining the oil in the process is not a good tradeoff.

We used the patch-style heater on the dry sump tank of Bob Peckham's M8C back in the '72-'73 Can-Am days. We left the heater on overnight and the oil was toasty warm the next day. If you need to get the temperature up faster, put two 400W heat patches on. In the industrial line, those types of heaters are available with a built-in thermostat-- handy to prevent accidental over-heating.

A heating patch can also be used on the differential housing to warm up the rear end lube.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

I like the idea of keeping it warm overnight - I suspect at Riverside you had power available - maybe it's time to invest in a generator with a bigger gas tank.

Has anyone ever left a generator running in impound overnight?

I've been negligent in observing the return run procedures - mostly because I'm not what one would describe as a "morning person".

Neil, I'm pretty certain I was at Road America in '73 - I was 13, and Can-Am had become a Porsche Parade by that time.  Records show a DNS for # 64.  What happened with Bud's car that year? 

[Stan Back]

Couple of thoughts (yes, I do have them once in a while).

At SpeedWeek, the problem is lesser for the qualifying run.  You come from your pit where you might have everything handy, and usually run in 90º temps after towing the vehicle a few miles.  With your backup run from Impound, things are a little different.  It's colder.  The tow is shorter.  And Chris ain't gonna get to the long course for a while, so he's not taking advantage of "running in" for four miles.

I don't know of 220V available in Impound, either.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Couple of thoughts (yes, I do have them once in a while).

At SpeedWeek, the problem is lesser for the qualifying run.  You come from your pit where you might have everything handy, and usually run in 90º temps after towing the vehicle a few miles.  With your backup run from Impound, things are a little different.  It's colder.  The tow is shorter.  And Chris ain't gonna get to the long course for a while, so he's not taking advantage of "running in" for four miles.

I don't know of 220V available in Impound, either.

The Midget on the long course - yeah, that one's a bit beyond the horizon . . .

Strategy would be atypical in my case.

Stan, would "preheating" and "charging the battery" be part of the 2 hour prep time one is limited to in impound?

[jacksoni]

After a qualifying run you have 4 hours or until salt closing time (800p) to work on the car. In the morning you get from gates open (about 600 usually) until tow out to start (700 usually) to do whatever you want heating, charging etc.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Well, the salt opens at 6 or whenever Dan or some other official gets there, but I'm thinking that if you needed to get in earlier -- it'd take one heck of a lot of donuts and coffee for Lynda's crew.  But it might be possible.  Raised, jelly-filled, and custard-filled are perennial favorites, and good coffee (truck stop coffee is about as good as can be!) are all suggested.  And it still might not work.  Dan doesn't get swayed by beer that early in the morning.  Not 'til more like late morning, usually -- say, 6.30AM.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Well, the salt opens at 6 or whenever Dan or some other official gets there, but I'm thinking that if you needed to get in earlier -- it'd take one heck of a lot of donuts and coffee for Lynda's crew.  But it might be possible.  Raised, jelly-filled, and custard-filled are perennial favorites, and good coffee (truck stop coffee is about as good as can be!) are all suggested.  And it still might not work.  Dan doesn't get swayed by beer that early in the morning.  Not 'til more like late morning, usually -- say, 6.30AM.

I'm thinking that Lynda is too dear a friend to try to manipulate in such a ham fisted manner - you don't mess with the gate keeper - but as a friend, I will keep in mind that bakery and coffee are welcome gifts.

I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.

My few encounters with 6:30AM usually entail accidental occurrences - like just getting home from a gig in La Crosse or a party where the host neglected to ask me to leave - some silly thing.

I just got back from American Science and Surplus -

http://www.sciplus.com/

They have, in the past, had a wide variety of heating elements of varying types.  I came up empty this time, but I did come away with a boatload of shrink wrap and soldering terminals.

I was also hoping they would have some small valves to continue my hydraulic experiments from last month, but that was a no go.