Production class rules

[wfojohn]

Well what is confusing to me is several years ago we were at Maxton with a street legal 1974 Yamaha RD60 using it as a pit bike. The RD60 was manufactured with a 55cc engine. I ask if I could sleeve it to a 50cc and run Production and Keith said no, there was no point in signing up for the 100cc class that day. Later we brought it back sleeved to 49cc and ran Modified which was appropriate. I thought (I could be wrong, I am getting old) I was told that Production had to run the class the engine size fell into as manufactured.

Now, in Modified we have run higher classes than our actual engine size at Maxton and we are okay with that but HOW CAN YOU PRODUCE DOCUMENTATION for a bike that never existed. There is no 100cc Aprilia. Just seems wrong but with no inspection/measuring/etc I guess this is going to happen. Again if in Production you are allowed to go up then down should be okay also. REALLY I don't think either should be allowed.

[Stan Back]

How can you produce documentation for a 3000cc ZX14?

[dw230]

With Loring, Texas, Maxton, etc. why do you have to produce documentation?

DW

[80 Theory]

Well, I have dog in this hunt so I may as well weigh in.  You can't criticise a person for following the rules.  If the rules allow you to run up in class then why not.  If you don't like the rules, then work to change them.  And, I mean that with all due respect to everyone.

I've been racing at Maxton since 2007 with a stock Hayabusa (so, yeah, I'm a new guy).  Last year I decided to get serious and challenge the P/P-1350/4 record held by Mark at ECTA and Ransom at Loring.

I went to Loring and was unable to break Ransom's 1350 record on Saturday.  I tossed and turned all Saturday night and then it dawned on me, run on an open record.  So I did and I got in the 2 club at 206 in the P/P-1650/4 class.  Yes, I did get greedy and also set open records in 2000 and 3000 both over 200 mph.

Last October I went to Maxton and was able to break Mark's 1350 record by not quite one mph.  So I legitimately got in the 2 club.  Then on Sunday I noticed Slim had a 3000 record that was only 196.  Well I just had to bump that up (sorry Jon).  If I had enough speed to break Mark's other two records I might have gotten greedy.

If the rules change and we aren't allowed to run up in displacement class then that will be OK with me.


Mike

[JR529]

I have always liked the fact that ECTA allows you to run up in class. I wish the SCTA would allow it. If someone saddled with a disadvantage can set a record then IMO they have earned it.

[Glen]

I doubt if you will get much support from SCTA/BNI racers. It's tradition to build a vehicle for the class and includes the engine size. But you are entitled to run what ECTA allows. Just my opinion. Good luck.

[wfojohn]

Hi DW,

Per ECTA Rule Book. 2011 rule book, page 73, paragraph 7.A.3

Dan, I recently moved East, I spent a lot of weekends at El Mirage and a couple of weeks at Bonneville over the years. When I went to Maxton I adapted to their way. I NEVER said or wrote that the ECTA should do things the way of the SCTA. Frankly, there seems to be a whole lot more common sense things being done running the show and the atmosphere is more to my liking.

Everyone on this board respects the SCTA and what it has done, is it possible for you to show the same to the non SCTA venues? Your constant back handed or out right negativity gets really boring.
John Ritter

[Stan Back]

I was referring back to the original question (anyone remember that?) which, I thought, was answered no -- but it's yes.

[dw230]

John,

It is not just me to whom you are referring. I respect the ECTA way of doing business. In fact, I have attended an event as a guest and enjoyed myself. If the rulebook allows running up class, personal certification, etc. so be it.

I am able to express my opinion as a citizen, see I can fall back on that card too. If I see something I don't like you will hear from me, it is personal opinion after all.

DW

[LittleLiner]

Well what is confusing to me is several years ago we were at Maxton with a street legal 1974 Yamaha RD60 using it as a pit bike. The RD60 was manufactured with a 55cc engine. I ask if I could sleeve it to a 50cc and run Production and Keith said no, there was no point in signing up for the 100cc class that day. Later we brought it back sleeved to 49cc and ran Modified which was appropriate. I thought (I could be wrong, I am getting old) I was told that Production had to run the class the engine size fell into as manufactured.

Now, in Modified we have run higher classes than our actual engine size at Maxton and we are okay with that but HOW CAN YOU PRODUCE DOCUMENTATION for a bike that never existed. There is no 100cc Aprilia. Just seems wrong but with no inspection/measuring/etc I guess this is going to happen. Again if in Production you are allowed to go up then down should be okay also. REALLY I don't think either should be allowed.

Here is why (I think) the answer is yes and no.  It all depends if the changes you make to a production bike cause (or do not cause) the bike to no longer be a production bike.
Yes you can run up in displacement with a production bike.   (But it must be a 100% production bike)
No you cannot increase (or decrease) the displacement of a production bike to move up a class or down a class because that will cause the bike to no longer be a legitimate production bike. 
In the case of the 55cc bike, it naturally fits into the 100cc production class (51 to 100cc).  If you do not increase the displacement beyond 100cc (and you meet all the other Production Bike requirements) you can run in the 100cc class and you can (with ECTA) run-up in the 125, 175, 250 etc., etc production classes.    Why?  Because it is still a production bike and you are just taking advantage of the ability to run up in engine class.
However if you or change the displacement and it falls outside the natural engine class size for your (as produced) bike  (either less than 50cc or greater than 100cc) . . you are no longer a production bike.   Therefore, you would be trying to run up in production classes with a Modified Bike.  That you cannot do.
Now . . .  in the car production classes it is different.  You can change the displacement and move up or down in class.   Let's say you have a car that came only with a 283 ci v8.  If you kept it as a 283 that would put you into D/P  (261 to 305 ci).  You can legally sleeve or de-stroke to 260 ci and legally run in E/P.  And with the ECTA, you could then take your production class E/P car (with its under-sized D engine) and run-up in class in AA, or A, or B or C or D Production. 
Clear as mud . . .

[Stan Back]

Bikes --

Now let me see . . .

If you run up into a class you don't belong to -- say 50cc to 60cc -- you're illegal.  But if you have a 50cc and say it's 100cc it's legal.

But then nobody measures anything.

I get it.  Makes sense to me.  How 'bout you?

Stan

[Cajun Kid]

I fully understand and support the running up in displacement class.

To me if the same body class car with say an E motor can run and get a D, C, B, A or AA  motor record,, then that is cool.  

If I had the  D/CGALT record and a legitimate E/CGALT car up displacement classed and got my record, I would congratulate them and then figure out how my bigger D motor just got out ran by a littler E motor.

Maybe I am not as clear as mud,,, oh well let's get to Loring and set a few more records...

We are leaving Wednesday morning for the 22 hour drive up there..come join us !!!

Charles

[Stan Back]

We're talking bikes here, which are different -- I think.

[bak189]

I still cannot understand how any LSR Org. can allow you to set "records" without certification of displacement size......racing on "personal integrity"....sound more like a social club....................

Just like DW. this is a free country and we are allowed to express our opinion even if some on this forum don't like it.................so there...............................................................................................

Enjoy your ride John Ritter......

I find many faults with the SCTA...especially in the area of LSR sidecar racing....but 99% of the time they get it right...............and people like DW. make it work...................................................................

[Cajun Kid]

Bikes --

Now let me see . . .

If you run up into a class you don't belong to -- say 50cc to 60cc -- you're illegal.  But if you have a 50cc and say it's 100cc it's legal.

But then nobody measures anything.

I get it.  Makes sense to me.  How 'bout you?

Stan

Stan what is your obsession with ECTA allowing integrity?  why do you harp on the fact that we do not measure engines?


If you come run with us and set a record and then someone breaks your record, you do have the right to protest and we will measure and "confirm" the stated engine size.

I am in no way saying other venues lack integrity or have cheaters, but your obsession with our trust and honor system seems to point in a direction that you "may feel"  that about other venues that do check ?

But then again it is clearly evident that anything East of Utah rubs you the wrong way, and for that I feel sorry for you.  There are a bunch of very fine racers out here, many have not yet ran on the salt, some have and some of us are just waiting for the opportunity...


You are welcome to trek out East and join us for some fun, you will be treated with dignity and respect, we can only expect the same when we play in your sand (salt) box.

These forums should be a venue to come together for fun and knowledge, not a forum for one up-manship between venues.


Life is good, let's drink it up.

Hope to see you some time.. I am sure we will have a lot to talk about whilst we have  a few drinks

Charles