Author Topic: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition  (Read 5330 times)

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Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« on: June 30, 2011, 02:32:50 AM »
I found this approach intriguing and promising. If developed right it could prove useful for LSR someday. -- LSL


Written by Paul A. Eisenstein on Jun.29, 2011 for "The Detroit Bureau"

The Mazda Kabura concept makes its debut in Detroit.

The rotary engine is the powertrain of the future – and always will be, declares the engineers who have spent frustrating decades trying to overcome the once-promising Wankel engine’s drawbacks. Updated rotary engine would run leaner, more fuel efficient.

Small, light and powerful, the rotary seemed destined for glory, with makers such as General Motors, Mazda and American Motors among the many manufacturers committed to using the engine back in the 1970s.  But then the first Mideast energy crisis struck and all but Mazda were forced to abandon the Wankel due to its relatively poor fuel economy.

The Inside Story!

Over the years, Mazda has scaled back rotary applications but never abandoned the technology – and now, the Japanese maker may have come up with an intriguing solution, using a laser ignition system, instead of conventional spark plugs to boost the Wankel’s fuel efficiency.

The British magazine AutoCar quotes a “senior,” albeit unidentified Mazda engineer involved with the ongoing development of Mazda’s next-generation rotary, known as the 16X Renesis.

The idea is that a high-power laser can generate the temperatures needed in lieu of an electric spark to ignite the air/fuel mixture in the Renesis.  In turn, that would permit the new engine to run extremely lean – which translates into significantly better mileage if it can work.

A laser could also be used to more accurately control the timing of the ignition process than a conventional spark ignition system.  Lasers can produce incredibly hot pulses that last the smallest fraction of a second – researchers hoping to trigger a controlled fusion process use beams of cohesive light to recreate the incredible heat seen in the core of the sun.

A laser ignition device could prove significantly smaller than the typical spark plug – perhaps a third of an inch wide and half an inch long.  It would likely be made of ceramics to survive the harsh environment inside a rotary engine.

Using a laser for the rotary engine “was absolutely possible,” the source told AutoCar.

It might also be critical if the Wankel engine is going to survive in a world of increasingly tough emissions and mileage regulations.  Mazda had to pull the RX-8, its last global model using the rotary, out of the European market because it couldn’t meet the latest Continental clean air standards.

Should the concept work, a production version of the 16X Renesis would likely grow from the initial 1.3 liters to 1.6, according to the magazine.  But the overall package has shrunk – and it has shed weight by switching to aluminum.

There’s no word on where a new rotary might appear, though a production version of the Mazda Kabura concept might be one possibility as a replacement for the current RX-8

Offline manta22

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 08:11:10 PM »
Nothing new here-- lasers have been used to ignite fuel mixtures before but only in R & D. This is a case of throwing technology at a problem just for technology's sake. There is no good reason to replace a spark plug ignition with a laser. Spark plugs fire the fuel charge just fine when provided with enough energy from a fast rise time ignition. In fact, there is no limit on how much energy an ignition system can deliver-- the only limitation is the point at which you begin eroding the electrodes away.

This is a dopey idea but it it did what was intended-- it got publicity.  :-(

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline hotrod

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 08:24:20 PM »
Laser ignition has been tried in R&D environments and to my knowledge one of the problems they found difficult (impossible) to avoid was darkening of the laser lens with soot buildup running max power mixtures.

If they have over come that then more power to them.

There are several advanced ignition processes that have been discussed / researched for some time now, Plasma ignition and microwave pulse ignition being two other advanced technology solutions. The question is are they a significant enough improvement in performance to over come their expense and complexity when compared to run of the mill high energy electronic spark ignition systems?

Perhaps at formula 1 performance levels (and engine rpm) but I have my doubts they well be cost effective solutions for lesser engines.

Larry

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 10:21:43 AM »
The problem with darkening of the lenses has been solved with nanomechanics.
On that 1/3 of an inch laser lens are 42,356 nano windshield wipers!!!!  :cheers:
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Offline johnneilson

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 10:52:07 AM »
Actually, the real anouncment is increasing displacement, anything to build more torque.

J
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 10:53:46 AM »
I expect we'll see it sooner than later.  Engine management is moving forward at a pretty good clip.

What's cool about it is that you could build the laser ignitor smaller than a sparkplug, letting you optimize valve location and/or size, and possibly redirect the center of ignition to the optimal position in the combustion chamber - and perhaps make it variable for different demands.

When Chrysler went with "transistorized" ignition on their whole lineup in the 1970's, a lot of my dad's buddies thought it lunacy.  None of them are running points today.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 11:45:52 AM »
Chris, there are a good many applications where the intersecting beams of lasers are used to create heat at a specific point.  In other words -- put a pair of lasers someplace in the head - one here and one there - and where the two beams meet is where the point where it gets hot.  For igniting in and engine -- the lasers could be located in "out of the way" locations and yet have the point of intersection/ignition be where you want it -- such as the "...optimal position in the combustion chamber ..."

These two-beam lasers are used for stuff like making those 3-D engravings in solid blocks of clear plastic, and also for doing certain procedures inside the eyeball -- without any contact by instruments.  Probably other stuff, too.
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Offline John Burk

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 03:52:44 PM »
Honda's CVCC design seemed clever , igniting a little normal mix and using it to ignite the main lean mix . Too complex probably . The time may come for the Australian direct injected 2 cycle design .

Offline smitty2

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 06:27:28 PM »
That Mazda Rotary is a good little motor to play around with. I tried to blow one up, and aside from broken wipers I couldn't get it to explode. They are the LOUDEST engine on earth... even louder than most turbojets. I just ended up using my RX3 engine to scare evil spirits out from under the house. If you could convert Decibels into Torque then the Rotary engines would rule the Earth!
 Laser ignition? Maybe if you used Hydrogen for fuel, but I think petroleum based fuels would "soot up" too fast.


Smitty...    :cheers:

Offline hotrod

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2011, 07:09:39 PM »
Quote
When Chrysler went with "transistorized" ignition on their whole lineup in the 1970's, a lot of my dad's buddies thought it lunacy.  None of them are running points today.

When Chrysler/Bendix Corporation  came out with electronic fuel injection (along with Desoto) called the Electrojector on the 1958 Chrysler 300D everyone thought they were crazy. They were just ahead of the technology. Vaccum tube systems could not handle the necessary complexity, speed and durability issues. They sold it to Bosch who went solid state and came out with the Jetronic fuel injection in 1967, which was essentially a transistor version of the system pioneered by Chryser and Bendix.

That said it took another 20 years to work the bugs out of mainstream production EFI systems so they were reliable and handled all the odd little problems like starting in sub zero weather, and such.

I suspect new technology ignition systems will go through the same process. Someone will come out with a production plasma, microwave or laser ignition system it will work through its teething problems over the next 5 years or so then will slowly go mainstream over the next 20 years.

Larry
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 07:12:00 PM by hotrod »

Offline Vishnuatepork

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 02:55:46 AM »
If Mazda's idea of upping the cc's is going to help it out, they should think in another direction. Diesel.   I think they should make it a diesel engine.  Then maybe just maybe it'll make torque!
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Offline Nexxussian

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Re: Mazda May Abandon Spark Plugs for Laser Ignition
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2011, 02:34:39 PM »
There was a company at one point marketing a "spark assisted diesel" rotary for kit aircraft at one point, no idea what became of it.
Just happy to be here. :-D

Erik