Author Topic: Detonation control  (Read 15879 times)

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2011, 09:21:30 AM »
OK, now we are getting somewhere...
If you are telling me your ratio is 13.5 N20 to 1 fuel then that will burn down the motor every time.   By weight the ratio should be 5:1 (rich) to 6:1 (lean).  That means your 40cc of fuel needs to weigh 3.2 oz.  to be at a safe starting point.
Then get retracted gap plugs and you should live through the long button push.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2011, 02:26:00 PM »
This is why I don't sleep well.
After thinking about it all night. I got 13.5 to 1 by converting 1lb to cc and then dividing by 40. That has to be wrong. But the number came out to 13.5. Kinda what I was looking for on a normal AF ratio.  :oops:  And the measurement was taken with the first test. That test was done with the system operating unevenly as in the first video.Now that things are primed and seem to be working properly I will need to re test.
     Thank you for you help. Going fast means going slow some times . This is when I need to take time to be sure it is right.
Thank you to all the volunteers

Offline dr j

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2011, 05:32:45 PM »
Eric,
If you used 1 lb of NOS for 40cc fuel then you are way lean based on Stainless numbers above. 
1lb =454gm and even assuming the fuel weighed the same as water then 40cc=40gm.  So 454/40=11.35:1 for a NOS:fuel.
But be sure in your test that you are using the same fuel lines as on your tank so you don't restrict the flow before it gets to the NOS powered piston pump.
Jarl- Moto Madcap
Sharpsburg MD
BUB2012- Morini 350- 4 Mod Pushrod records, Parilla 175- M-VG rec
250cc 4stroke Nitrous Motorcycle- 131.8mph
250/4 Naked Motorcycle-115.6mph
APS/F-125/2 115.2mph
P/PV-175/4 Moto Parilla-59.7mph
29 Retired Maxton Class Records on 3 bikes and 4 engines

Offline joea

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2011, 06:08:26 PM »
racerx, did you measure fuel used via the burret method or are you trying to capture
fuel into something after it falls out of the n20 cloud ..?...

i think if you rig up a fuel holder and measure in cc or by wt the fuel, then run the test
and then decipher how much is missing from the supply vessel you will have better grip
on fuel used....

stainless and many of us are a bit put off by drawing fuel by a nitrous siphoning effect, as
many of use set up our system to have fuel flow first and after this is verified by say a pressure
switch that switch in turn allowd nitrous solenoid to then power up...always having the fuel first...

not saying you need to do this, or that it is even correct...just the view point some are coming from...

Offline saltwheels262

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2011, 08:08:31 PM »
...just the view point some are coming from...

and those " some "--

         seem to have nitrous dialed in pretty well
           have been doing it for quite a while
          n go pretty durn fast with big mills

I think they are on the right track.
good luck x.

bf
bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill  
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
ohio -    - 185.076 w/#684      
lta 8/14  - 169.xxx. w/sw2           
'16 -- 0 runs ; 0 events

" it's not as easy as it looks. "
                            - franey  8/2007

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2011, 06:30:43 AM »
Hey Guys
Thank you all very much for the help. I am trying not to advertise on the forum But this video will explain how this system works.
 When I have captured data from using it ,the system seems to go rich first. The "hit" is very soft when I push the button.

http://youtu.be/pmsJfmnrrNs

http://youtu.be/bUhHUbLpGQI

I am going out in the shop now and re test this . I will weight the bottle before and after.That is how I will measure nitrous volume. I have the fuel is a graduated cylinder. I measure the volume going in to the system. I tried to capture fuel coming out .But that is not very reliable. Seems the fuel goes into the air and I cant catch all of it . But I will video the cloud to try to determine if both sides are even.
Thank you to all the volunteers

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2011, 07:55:27 AM »
OK nitrous test #3
I set things up again. This time I tried to be more careful and record data better. I liked doing this after letting the system sit to see how it will do at the track. .This is the mixture I plan to spray in September.

http://youtu.be/b_1FFYkROig

     This is a link to the test . I sprayed for 5 sec. The volume looks like it should. Notice how quickly fuel begins to move. As soon as I hit the button fuel starts to drop.

Full bottle weight 3lb .6 3/8.oz

 After 20cc the bottle weight was 3.0lb

 There was a 1/4 oz of nitrous in the lines so there was a little less than .3 3/8 oz of nitrous for 20 cc of gas.I honestly do not know how to calculate the ratio. :-(

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 08:40:05 AM by racer x »
Thank you to all the volunteers

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2011, 10:23:24 AM »
Since you system will not allow you to catch the fuel you flow do it this way.
Weigh the container you put fuel in, weigh the container with fuel in it, the difference is the fuel weight.  weigh the leftover fuel, the difference is fuel you put in the cylinder.
Test each side, one at a time... the cloud is N20, you won't see the fuel if it is atomized correctly. 
start with the lines full if possible, you want to be as accurate as possible, your pistons are counting on you  :-D  Rich is your friend, lean is the enemy, 5:1 has always been my goal for a long button push. 
I collected data on every jet, I rechecked my math from my data at every jet change, power went up, ratio stayed the same within a .1 or .2.  My last N20 engine failure was a Carrillo rod... bent under the combustion pressure until it hit the crank counterweight.   :|
 
We killed lots of parts before we stopped believing the jet selection choices from the manufacturers, did the research, built in our own safeties, and tested, and tested, and tested.  Some engines might live through the couple of seconds of button that they get drag racing... if you push the button for 10 to 58 seconds, you better have everything right.  The fuel system must be fully sorted without the N20, then the N20 and enrichment fuel must be treated as a separate unit, you cannot look at final AFR and say you are good.  Don't forget timing, personally I liked to pull 3-5 degrees for N20 in general and then 1 more for every pound per minute that I sprayed.  I really can't offer much more than my own experience with our zx-7 and zx-10 motors, other than I used the same ratios with both.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline dr j

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2011, 01:27:16 PM »
Eric,
If you used 3 3/8 oz of NOS then that is 16/3.375 oz X 454= 96gm.
Then you used 20cc of fuel which should weigh about 20gm so then 96/20 so ratio of NOS/fuel is 4.8:1
Should weigh the fuel to see what the weight/volume actually is to be more accurate.

Stainless and Joea,
Thank you both for all your info.  Eric and I are both listening.  I finally will get to the salt for BUB 2011 to spectate only on Sunday and Monday.
Jarl- Moto Madcap
Sharpsburg MD
BUB2012- Morini 350- 4 Mod Pushrod records, Parilla 175- M-VG rec
250cc 4stroke Nitrous Motorcycle- 131.8mph
250/4 Naked Motorcycle-115.6mph
APS/F-125/2 115.2mph
P/PV-175/4 Moto Parilla-59.7mph
29 Retired Maxton Class Records on 3 bikes and 4 engines

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2011, 01:44:09 PM »
What sort of air fuel ratio number should I see on the data logger when I run the engine down the track? and What sort of exhaust temp should I expect?
Thank you to all the volunteers

Offline RacerX9623

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2012, 03:29:39 AM »
Just to update this thread
I believe the problem I was having was the engine was going lean.

The problem with the Boss Noss system is basically the fuel lines are two small. The system leans out after a short period of time.

I switched to the Wizards of Nitrous system. Becides the fact that the system worked . The customer support has been over the top . The owner of the company helped me put together a custom system.

In July at Ohio I made a small test . Spraying 90% of ten hp to test the system. I pushed the button at the 3/4 mile marker. The bike went from 92mph to 111.042 mph at the trap. Engine exhaust temps stayed under 1200 deg. F  and the plugs looked perfect. Next test will be in September . But it looks like my detonation/ preignition problems are solved.
trying to go 200 KPH with a 250cc four stroke.

Offline RacerX9623

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2012, 09:12:22 AM »
   The September test went well.I used a 30 shot of nitrous and managed to get 123 mph. I did not have things tuned to optimum power and it was not a clean run at all.
No detonation and EGT stayed below 1250 deg F.
The Wizards of Nitrous system works perfectly. And I have no engine damage. Now that I have that sorted I can move on to tuning.
trying to go 200 KPH with a 250cc four stroke.