Author Topic: Detonation control  (Read 15884 times)

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Offline dr j

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2011, 10:27:52 PM »
Eric,
Consider a faulty ICM.  IIRC you have an aftermarket adjustable unit now.  Maybe it is not doing what you are telling it to do.  Consider replacing the stock one for next meet.

Also I wonder if you have a partially clogged fuel jet/passage for that side carb.

As for the plug, as mentioned by another post, the elctrode can be a problem with NOS.  My Wizard of NOS guru in UK recommends cutting the electrode at the same length as the tip and then adjust the gap from the side of the tip by bending the elctrode stump towards the tip. 
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2011, 12:19:35 AM »
Quote
One thing I did not mention. When I was running 13.25 to 1 pistons I had a head that I polished the combustion chambers on. With the 12.5 to 1 pistons the "pre ignition" seemed to be worse even though I had a little less timing. Dose polishing the chambers help that much?

I think you are attributing the change in behavior to the wrong thing. The 12.5:1 piston likely had less squish (and less mixture motion) which strongly impacts burn speed. The higher compression of the 13.25:1 would also speed up combustion, and I would suspect due to the higher compression ratio had better mixture motion. The polishing certainly helped, but it was not the only factor.

Detonation is strongly affected by both the ignition timing and the burn speed of the mixture. That is one of the reasons engines require less octane at high rpm than they do at lower rpm. Highest octane demand is usually at the peak torque rpm, because by definition that is the point the engine has its highest cylinder pressures (and most efficient intake volumetric efficiency).

Fuel air mixture also controls burn speed, with mixtures of gasoline near 12.5:1 - 13:1 having highest burn speeds in most cases (varies with specific fuel and engine design). The burn speed slows down if you go either rich or lean of what ever the best burn speed mixture is for your engine.

Looking at your pictures I think you had both pre-ignition and detonation. Detonation tends to break things (piston picture) and pre-ignition tends to torch pistons and heads (cylinder head picture). I suspect you had detonation that rapidly progressed to pre-ignition which only stopped when the cylinder pressure blew the top out of the piston.

For detonation to occur you need to hold the fuel air mixture at high pressure and temperature for a period of time for the detonation sensitive precursors to form as the hot fuel breaks down. This is why octane demand drops at high rpm, there is less time for the detonation reactions to take place.

At some critical heat pressure and time value that fuel air mix that has not yet burned normally, suddenly ignites and burns at near detonation velocities (speed of sound in the fuel air mixture) rather than burning normally along a flame front, causing huge over pressure spikes that break things. The high pressure shock waves strip off the thin insulating layer of gases that helps hold temperatures in check on piston crowns, valves and spark plugs and temperatures of the surfaces skyrocket even though the actual combustion temperatures are lower. This can very quickly make any sharp edge in the combustion chamber like a valve pocket cut out, piston relief edge or spark plug electrode get up to melting temperatures.

The burning/detonation process of knock happens so fast that even at 200,000 frames a second high speed camera speeds NACA had difficulty recording the actual detonation process.


Larry

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2011, 01:15:17 AM »
You have piston to head clearance issues with the piston closest to the cam chain galley...what is the piston deck thickness and make sure you check piston to head clearance with both pistons..

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 07:10:09 AM »
    So far the only things I have checked is the piston clearance. I checked it with the 13 to 1 Pistons I assembled the engine with out gaskets then turned the motor around. I also had the valves in the head with no springs .I could move the valves at TDC . Then with gaskets the clearance was greater . I hope.

  . I don't want to use the stock Ignition control module.it is set at 35 deg. The one I have seems OK at least I know that when I switched maps the knocking sound in first gear went away on the next pass. Stock timing is 35 deg BTDC. I run as much as 42 at 12000 rpm and as little as 32 in the lower rpm range all motor.
   I did all my ignition tuning for the all motor part on a dyno. But I have yet to spray nitrous on the dyno because I was afraid to blow the motor. Now I an afraid not to test on the dyno because I might blow the motor.   :roll:


With nitrous I was at 32 max.Now I am thinking 25 max I can change maps with a switch on the handlebar.

This week I will go into the carbs then I will do all sort of testing with my nitrous system. I will video that
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 07:20:13 AM by racer x »
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 04:30:27 PM »
Any sharp edge heats quickly and the incandescent surface will cause pre-ignition. Sharp edges on the electrode make the plug work better, but can be a source. Sharp edges can also be microscopic defects in the head or piston. The carbon buildup on the piston is a prime place for this to happen. I wouldn't run an engine that has any carbon visible.

Detonation is a simple function of achieving ignition temperatures without the benefit of the spark plug controlling the timing. And it is detonation. It happens ahead of the flame front that is rapidly expanding from the spark plug. Instead of a uniform flame front the detonation (think explosion) causes sharp rises in pressure that results in sharp rises in temperature. High temperatures and high pressures are the cause.

Lowering the temperatures by cooling the intake charge, cooling the fuel (rarely done, if ever), water injection, turbulence through intake design (turbulence causes better mixing. Non-uniform mixing promotes detonation.)

Compression ratios and timing as mentioned. Don't bog the engine. Low rpm's promote knock. A different gear ratio might help.
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Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2011, 09:24:50 PM »
Reread the post from Stainless 1. If you still do not understand what he is telling. You, talk it over with a friend. It is very good advice,
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2011, 10:04:00 PM »
Reread the post from Stainless 1. If you still do not understand what he is telling. You, talk it over with a friend. It is very good advice,

O yea that is good advice. I will do all that and test test test everything I can think of .Part of my problem is testing on the track not on the dyno. I need to forget about records and points and just think about speed. That is all that matters anyhow.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2011, 02:09:57 AM »
Racer X, many posts ago an iridium plug was mentioned.  These have a fine wire center electrode.  This might not be what you want for this application.

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 06:58:42 AM »
I agree with that.
The iridum was sujested by JE pistons . I am going to go with cr10e and trim the electrode like Like DrJ sujests. This will make it more of a serface gap. .and I will make that gap.019. Thanks

I made a couple practice plugs. It is not an easy thing to do. I am afraid to fatigue the welded on tip. So after careful cutting and filing I want to do the bend in one shot. I got this one to .024 I will get a box of cr10e Plugs and make some new ones.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 07:52:17 AM by racer x »
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2011, 09:17:46 AM »

O yea that is good advice. I will do all that and test test test everything I can think of .Part of my problem is testing on the track not on the dyno. I need to forget about records and points and just think about speed. That is all that matters anyhow.

RX, dont start your motor again till you know what you are putting in it.  N20 testing in done without starting the motor.  The subject has been discussed here multiple times, so do a little searching and reading and you will understand what I am saying.  I hope the plugs you are making work out, if not you will find a picture of retracted gap in one of those N20 threads.  Rick at ERC has them.  It also sounds like you may have motor problems without N20, work those out first.  It also seems to me that you are running too much timing, but your motor may require that much. 
We ran a little over 10 lbs of N20 per minute through our 1 liter, pulled 10 degrees of timing.
again good luck with your quest
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline joea

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2011, 09:19:03 AM »
..modification..i see stainless and i posted about same time..oh well ill leave it..


..why not save some money and buy a spark plug or two that
is manufactured as you wish to use it...?..(ps really read what stainless
said)....

imo:

you could call Rick Gold at ERC for plug configuration and heat range of your
choice...tell him joe amo sent ya...:).....and while your at it...i "strongly" recommend
you put some proper fuel in it!!!!...Rick can get you that as well..!!! or at least use VP c16...


...you can do all that piston and comb chamber massaging...but again imo.....focus on
nitrous to fuel ratio's and timing and fuel..these cost almost nothing to get right without hurting
anything....if it was me (so take it with large grains of salt)...i would only dyno to get normally aspirated dialed in...

Joe :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 10:21:17 AM by joea »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2011, 11:36:32 AM »
You may have noted a couple of references to ERC. I would highly recommend running their fuel. Not to mention they have given us a ton of support.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2011, 01:06:47 PM »
Thank you all for such sage advice. It will start with the nitrous fuel ratio testing and you can see what I am doing. This is a very different system than many prople use.

I am still thinking the nitrous is not the problem but everything else is.IE to much timing carb tuning and the like . When I was starting out .the engine responded to using a rich mixture and very advanced timing. Now that I have raised the compression I still have not takin the timing back enough. I am going with a blank sheet and starting over with the nitrous tuning.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2011, 07:56:02 PM »
My bad earlier - knock/detonation.

We're all thinking ignition timing, but what about valve timing?  Seeing that it's apparently just one cylinder, this may not be pertinent, but if you've got it opened up, I'd grab a dial indicator and a degree wheel and double check your valve events on both cylinders.

Earlier I was thinking the intake cam might be advanced a tick, effectively raising your dynamic CR, which would give the charge a prolonged period of time closed off in the chamber on the compression stroke before reaching TDC.  Too much time in the cylinder, low RPM, an effective increase of the dynamic CR - sounds like a recipe to me.  It's not likely that one set of lobes are off, but it's not unheard of, either.

Ton of variables and no silver bullet in my holster, but keep us posted.

Stainless is spot on - don't fire it up until you know.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2011, 10:31:36 PM »
Both cams are retarded just a bit. I cut the top of the block down .010. That rolled the cams  "some"

I am spending a lot of thinking time figuring out how to set up test to video so we can all see what is going on. Thanks for all the help.
Thank you to all the volunteers