Author Topic: Detonation control  (Read 15886 times)

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Offline racer x

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Detonation control
« on: May 29, 2011, 10:35:43 AM »
I have been having some problems with detonation. Particularly with Nitrous. What would be the best way to combat this.
Higher octane gasoline?
retard the timing some more?
lower the compression?
reshape the combustion chamber? Like deshroud the valves
cooler spark plugs?
Methanol fuel?
my Nitrous mix is very rich.But I can hear some knock in first gear before I even push the button.
 
I plan to do ALL of the above .But I am curious what is the best or most important thing to look for.
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Offline Captthundarr

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2011, 11:53:43 AM »
What's the compression? First thing I would check is timing and consider uping the fuel octane,ie. no cheep fuel from JD's pawn,bait, hardware and 24hr. adult gift shop. :-D

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Offline WildBro

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2011, 12:58:51 PM »
CH3OH

Bill
aka: Tenno Celeritas

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2011, 04:57:18 PM »
I have run 13.25 to 1 then 12.5 to one I pulled a couple deg of timing and plan to pull more. I run Rocket 111 but will try 118 next time.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2011, 11:56:07 PM »
A few thoughts -

250 Kawi, water cooled, right?

Classic troubleshooting approach.  Baseline - make sure everything is spot on before you start changing variables or grinding.

Two things you didn't mention -

How is the temp? 

Both cylinders knocking?  Fuel distribution.  Make sure the mixture is right.

If you deshroud the valves and do nothing else, you will loose a bit of compression, and the knock might go away, but you'll never know for sure if it was compression related or combustion chamber related.

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 08:55:57 AM »
A few thoughts -

250 Kawi, water cooled, right?

Classic troubleshooting approach.  Baseline - make sure everything is spot on before you start changing variables or grinding.

Two things you didn't mention -

How is the temp? 

Both cylinders knocking?  Fuel distribution.  Make sure the mixture is right.

If you deshroud the valves and do nothing else, you will loose a bit of compression, and the knock might go away, but you'll never know for sure if it was compression related or combustion chamber related.



The engine is water cooled . The top temp I got was 209 deg F. There is no "rainbow" on the plug threads or even any darkening at all.Ex the tip of the damaged plug was gone .The insulation was white.The pistons bottoms .Looking at the dome from underneath is normal with no discoloration.
I don't think I am melting down the pistons . The parts are like marbles like it was smashed .Not melted.

My thinking with deshrouding the valves is to remove the sharp edges.I would not do much .If I loose some compression I can go back to the 13 to 1 pistons. They have a thicker crown anyway.

I don't know if both cylinders are knocking . The damage is always on the right side#2 piston.

My main assumption is the mixture is off on the right side .
    I will be checking and test everything for next time . I also will be adding exhaust temp gauges with high speed sensors for both cylinders.I am also thinking of building a dual exhaust so I can monitor both sides seperatly. with dual O2 sensors.
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Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 11:43:00 AM »
CH3OH

Bill

Bill.
 I have a system that will allow me to run a nitrous and Methanol mix and still run the engine with gasoline through the carbs. I really like this idea.BUT the smallest shot I can get is 15 hp on each side, That is a 30 shot. I was having clutch issues with the 20 shot I run now. It is the least amount I can run with my system. I "think " I have the clutch problem fixed .At least till I get more power .Then it starts all over again. :-D
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 12:00:06 PM »
The tip of your plug missing is your key clue... that is where the hotspot is.  Those electrodes make N20 torch the incoming charge.  After you test your mixtures find retracted gap plugs.  If your motor uses 10mm plugs your should be able to find retracted gap.
Do you know the weights of the N20 and gas you are adding?  5:1 is slightly fat, 6:1 is a little too lean for long button pushes.
Test...test...test
good luck



Yes I do have thousands of dollars worth of N20 experience..... :|  :roll:
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Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 12:45:04 PM »
The stock plug is NGK  cr7e cr8e I run cr9e .But I will get the cr10e OR  iridium if I can find them.
Am I correct in thinking that as the cylinder pressure goes up the resistance goes down? SO I should go from .028 to .019 as a gap . AND shim the plug up some to get it out of the chamber.
Am I also correct thinking that as the piston is going up the glowing hot plug fires off the mixture before the spark happens? and that is the same as advancing the timing?

I don't think the glowing plug is my PRIMARY problem though .Since I am getting detonation before I spray, Know I now if it is knocking in first gear don't spray.But it is a steep learning curve.
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Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 03:33:09 PM »
O Young Ninja,,, "if you spray...you must pay"  Eric I am afraid your need for speed has gotten you bit by the dark side.. the juice can be poisen.. when I drag raced bikes the juice cost me two engines back in the 80's.. I know N20 is more evolved than it was then,, but man it still hurts parts...!!!

Good luck,,, see you in June.. (oh I just got my F.A.S.T.) Drivers helmet cooling system arrived a few days ago.... ready to unpack the goodie box and install the system in the Stude later tonight or one evening this week (if time permits)...

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 03:36:57 PM »
Curious - at what RPM does the knock start?  Does the knock go away in the upper revs if you don't add the laughing gas?   

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 04:27:39 PM »
Curious - at what RPM does the knock start?  Does the knock go away in the upper revs if you don't add the laughing gas?   


The knock comes in a t low RPM and definitely goes away at the top RPM..It has been going on since the beginning. But until the nitrous it was not a problem. I have tried different ignition maps but have not gotten rid of it .

Charles
 I am using nitrous to find the week parts of the engine. also it is a cheap way to get speed to develop the bike. These engines are 500 dollars on E bay all day long.Then about that much for pistons and other parts to make it race worthy.So for about a grand I can try again, So far things have gone well . But I don't want to break things regardless of the cost
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 05:02:47 PM »
Quote
Am I also correct thinking that as the piston is going up the glowing hot plug fires off the mixture before the spark happens? and that is the same as advancing the timing?

What you just described is pre-ignition not knock. Knock can lead to pre-ignition but they are different processes.

High plug temps, can be due to too hot of a heat range on the plug, poor torque on the plug screwing up heat transfer to the head, lean fuel air mixture, or too advanced timing.

There is no law that says you have to run the same heat range plug in both cylinders.
Try running that cylinder with one heat range cooler than the other.
As you say check for fuel mixture imbalance, that cylinder may be running leaner than the other.

Many sources recommend retracted gap or short nose plugs on nitrous.

An engines octane requirement drops as rpm goes up, your low rpm knock implies you are running too much spark advance to me. Are you using spark retard when you go on the spray?
Are you sure both cylinders are running the same effective spark timing, if the ignition system has lots of spark scatter or some how fires one cylinder a bit earlier (in crankshaft degrees) than the other you will have a chronic problem with the most advanced cylinder. You will never be able to get maximum performance out of the late cylinder without getting into detonation on the advanced cylinder. Likewise with mixture imbalance the lean cylinder will always limit your power.

Also check your actual valve timing on both cylinders one may have more effective cam timing than the other resulting in higher cylinder pressures in one cylinder than the other.

Another possible cause is actual deck height and rod lengths or piston crown specifications, you might have a tolerance problem where one cylinder has all the short parts and the other has all the long parts so their actual compression ratios are not what you think they are.

If you are using port injection of the nitrous, you could also try running richer jetting of the N2O in that hot cylinder.

Aircraft engines have some of the best research on internal combustion engines. You might find these two articles useful.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182132-1.html

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182084-1.html

When all the shouting is over, knock (detonation) is a function of peak cylinder pressures and charge air temperatures, those two parameters determine what the octane requirement of a specific engine is, with proper ignition advance and fuel octane, being secondary. Research by NACA during WWII found that with known ideal ignition timing, and a known fuel octane, they could predict the onset of knock in a given engine design, knowing only the intake air charge temperature and peak cylinder pressure. There was a maximum value for both that could not be exceeded without causing knock.

Larry

Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 09:13:45 PM »
I guess I should have called this thread Pre ignition control. I will have to read these links over a couple times to get my head around it.
  I have been running my mixture very rich like 10.9 to 1 and it is even richer with the spray. But now I am thinking I need less timing and a leaner mixture.
Data acquisition is the key to not doing the same thing over again. I am going to spend some money on that . I have the innovate LM2 and I can run an O2 sensor for each piston. That with EGT should help. Dyno testing will also be a regular thing from now on.

One thing I did not mention. When I was running 13.25 to 1 pistons I had a head that I polished the combustion chambers on. With the 12.5 to 1 pistons the "pre ignition" seemed to be worse even though I had a little less timing. Dose polishing the chambers help that much?

The second photo is the damaged head from May. I will repair that this week.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 09:28:45 PM by racer x »
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Offline racer x

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Re: Detonation control
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 09:28:01 PM »
this is the piston from May.
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