For TURBINATOR

[dw230]

Lewis,

Have you given any thought to the supposition that maybe vehicles like the Speed Demon are built for the smaller engine classes because there is no ground available to run your 500+ MPH speeds? Maybe Poteet & Main just want to run at Bonneville and not Iran.

George has a good grip on the issue above.

DW

[sockjohn]

all these naysayers remind me of the engineers that said a dragster could never go over 140 mph in
the 1/4 mile    Last Sunday it was over 320 mph in 1000 ft. in less than 4 sec.

There sure were a lot of Sundays between those two speeds being exceeded, and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.  Where are all of the 500 mph capable cars?

Have you given any thought to the supposition that maybe vehicles like the Speed Demon are built for the smaller engine classes because there is no ground available to run your 500+ MPH speeds?

With deep pockets, there is more ground available than at Bonneville.  I wouldn't want to deal with the logistics and expenses of that endeavor. 

[maguromic]

Lewis,

 Maybe Poteet & Main just want to run at Bonneville and not Iran.

DW

Why wouldn't they want to run in Iran? Its such a lovely place to visit, especially if you want to hike along the border. Tony

[Tman]

Lewis,

 Maybe Poteet & Main just want to run at Bonneville and not Iran.

DW

Why wouldn't they want to run in Iran? Its such a lovely place to visit, especially if you want to hike along the border. Tony

And your wife (we have one here) will LOVE IT!

[maguromic]

LOL, I can only afford one wife.  Tony 

[MAYOMAN]

It's early in the morning and I am still a little sleepy, but Gwillard's comment about "putting the power on the ground" is the key to reaching 600+ and 700+ mph speeds on the salt flats with a wheel driven vehicle.

In the end it comes down to developing enough thrust (through the wheels, eh?) to overcome the air friction drag and rolling resistance, saving some additional power (wheel torque) for acceleration. So, what limits the wheel thrust in this instance? Without doing the math, it is the coefficient of friction between the drive wheels and the ground surface, the normal force of the drive wheels against the ground surface, and the drive wheel torque at the required rpm. Again, without doing the math, it will likely require using the vehicle aerodynamics to provide additional down force (like a formula one car) to obtain the required thrust for these very high speeds. So, the aerodynamicist's challenge is to design for low air friction drag (low Cd and low frontal area), vehicle stability (especially at low subsonic, transonic, and supersonic speeds), and the necessary down force to maintain wheel thrust (traction). Once these requirements are quantified, the horsepower can be determined, and the race is on.

My guess is that a salt pan surface will be superior to a mud lake for providing a reasonable coefficient of friction. The dusty mud lake surface would tend to act like a bunch of ball bearings - not good for traction? So, then the challenge would be to find a salt pan surface long enough or have enough acceleration to use the known courses.

Getting back to the early 1950s calculations of the maximum 1/4-mile perfomrance, that was caused by only considering the tire friction, not the chemical/mechanical bonds with the asphalt achieved by M&H and Goodyear tire engineers.

[manta22]

Maybe it is time to re-visit Jim Hall's Chapparal "sucker car" concept. It worked well enough to be banned.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[turbo325ii]

I love the idea here!!!!  Like others said, people are always afraid of whats different and new.... But where would we be today without the innovators in our world?  We would still be living in caves holding a torch....

[lewis]

I love the idea here!!!!  Like others said, people are always afraid of whats different and new.... But where would we be today without the innovators in our world?  We would still be living in caves holding a torch....

Good! This is the way....What Mayoman (thank you very very much for your post) said, is what happen today: we all know well all the  variables (frictions, cd, weight, wheels,tyres.....);but we limit to put those numbers in the equations :and voilà, we have the layout.Than we can try to refine some of this factors (maybe put the cd from 0.2 to 0.15, the power from 1000 to 1200hp...) but the main problems remain the same..from 1930 until now: transfer the power on the ground...in other words TRACTION. A part from a little improvement in tyres..none have done something new to vercome this obstacle. In f1 until 1977 all try to put every sort of wing on the car for downforce.All engineers in the same directions....Than one man (Called Chapman ) made the ground effect.Lotus was unbeatable. The "wing car" or even more "the sucker car" could be a very interesting solution, but i think that the irregular surface of the salt would get a "sucker car" very dangerous,right?
We return at the same point:salt is a very bad place for speed!
But if it is the only place long enough in which we could run safely, let's try to see over the conventional solutions!
If not...we will gain only a couple of mph every 10 ears!
Come on everyone! post your suggestion. I am insisting with all of you, because you are the only community born for speed!
Maybe some ideas coul seem too ambitious but..in the end I am conviced that something good will came out!
Bye Bye

[F104A]

Putting horsepower/torque to the ground is the big issue. Heck we put out 45,000 HP from our hopped up J-79 and we'll struggle to reach 771 to break the record. At about
mach .85 (around 580) shock waves begin to develop under the vehicle. At mach .98 (just short of supersonic) things get really tough with shock waves, pressure wave and extremely critical handling issues. When transitioning through the sound barrier all bets are off. Lift can become crushing force and visa versa. The pressure against the wheels
alone will be a major issue. The resistance against the fuselage goes up by the square and becomes a huge barrier to overcome. Doing it with wheel traction will be really really
difficult. I'm sure that someday, someone will figure out a way to do it. It just takes money, imagination and tenacity.
 

[Freud]

Ed, it seems easy to me. I know you have the imagination and the tenacity and now days money doesn't seem to be a problem.

There just isn't any.

Trudge on Soldier.

FREUD

[velocity]

I'm big on having an open mind and considering all potentialities.

This is a fine idea, but like Garlits used to tell me over and over again about all manner "new and improved" high performance ideas, "You can make horsepower all day long, the trick is putting it on the ground." LSR folks understand that process better with every run.


Don Vesco told me the powerplant in the Turbinator originally spit out 16,000 RPM without any throttle input. Gear reducting that down to a usable 8,000 RPM took some time, but eventually earned us a 458 World Record that still stands today. It is my fervent hope that Tom Burkland gets the salt he needs this upcoming season to topple our 10-year reign for wheel-driven steed.

LandSpeed Louise

[Oldanontheway]

+1.

old...