Author Topic: Aerodynamics  (Read 40495 times)

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Blue

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2011, 01:02:13 PM »

 I have a foto of Thrust breaking the sound barrier from above, the dust cloud [shock wave] goes straight out at right anglels from the sides from front of streamliner for a great distance.
 Do any of the CFD programs show the same results?

               JL222                          
Yes, any decent CFD can show compression and expansion waves on a really bumpy and poorly designed object.  However, the pressures associated with all of that transonic separation and flow turning can be off by a factor of 10 in local areas, which is why it would be better if all of these teams would area rule the designs before going to the effort and expense of CFD just to see that, yes, bumpy cross sectional area distribution makes lots of shocks.  Shocking.

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2011, 02:49:29 PM »
Eric,
I guess that it is time for me to put in my two cents worth on my favorite aero book "The Leading Edge" by Goro Tamai. I know it is about cars that do not run over 60mph but the aero info does translate to what we are interested in and he does address interference drag, especially junction flows, appendages, fillet radius' etc. It also addresses most of the things that are important to land speed racing related to aerodynamics.

I 1997 or 98 my son and I were at the 5 mile mark when Don Vesco came through at 439 mph in his turbine car, at that time the air inlet to the engine was a scoop that was mounted on the top of the car above the boundary layer. The day was somewhat humid and we could see shock waves coming off of the back of the air scoop. Does your statement " yes, bumpy cross sectional area distribution makes lots of shocks." explain what we saw?

Rex
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Blue

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2011, 08:44:16 PM »
Eric,
I guess that it is time for me to put in my two cents worth on my favorite aero book "The Leading Edge" by Goro Tamai. I know it is about cars that do not run over 60mph but the aero info does translate to what we are interested in and he does address interference drag, especially junction flows, appendages, fillet radius' etc. It also addresses most of the things that are important to land speed racing related to aerodynamics.

I 1997 or 98 my son and I were at the 5 mile mark when Don Vesco came through at 439 mph in his turbine car, at that time the air inlet to the engine was a scoop that was mounted on the top of the car above the boundary layer. The day was somewhat humid and we could see shock waves coming off of the back of the air scoop. Does your statement " yes, bumpy cross sectional area distribution makes lots of shocks." explain what we saw?

Rex
I haven't seen "The Leading Edge", if we see each other at Bonneville this year I'd like to get a look at it.  Is it still in print?

The speed of sound at Bonneville under the racing conditions of the various meets of the last half century range from ~1100 fps for the 43F during Blue Flame's return run to ~1150 for a rare 100F day.  Given this Turbinator's exit speed of 470 mph (691 fps) would translate into M.60 to M.63.  This is certainly high enough to see some areas of abrupt curveture develop supersonic flow.  This would lead to compression waves on the front end of these areas as the local flow accelerates beyond M1.0 and expansion waves behind as the supersonic flow turns to fill in the downstream pressure recovery area.

Looking at the pictures on the Vesco site, it appears that the increase in area on the front side of the scoop was smooth enough that any compression waves would be spread out and not visible as an atmospheric disturbance.  The back side of the scoop is pretty abrupt, so what was likely seen was the expansion wave from the flow turning to fill in the separation area.

The best visible example of this effect in LSR was the famous TSSC photo.  Look at the shock that comes from the back of the engine nozzles:  There was 39 ft2 of base drag in this area and it caused a large and VERY high drag expansion wave at a completely different visible angle than the compression waves from the other area-increase features (nose, inlets, cockpit) and the trailing expansion shock at the tail.

On a properly designed supersonic vehicle, not compromised by poor aerodynamics, there should be one compression shock spread over the front half of the vehicle and one expansion shock spread over the back half with hard shocks only at the front and rear.  This series of compression-expansion-compression waves on the analysis of the current vehicles should have been fixed long before CFD.  Some will say that this is impractical on an LSR vehicle.  Not true.  I solved that problem 3 years ago and we've been working on other issues since.

Got a little off topic here.  Good to have a board just for this subject.

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2011, 01:15:07 AM »
Eric,
The "Leading Edge" is still in print, as a matter of fact I think there is a new edition. I bought mine at the Automotive Book Store, on Magnolia Blvd in Burbank, but it is available through Amazon also. I will remember to bring mine to Bonneville and we should try to meet at the Salt Talks or I will be in the pit of the number 221 4VFL lakester of Steve Nelsons'.

Rex
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Offline F104A

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2011, 11:47:49 PM »
Another good book to add to your technical library is "Fundamentals of Aerodynamics" by John D. Anderson, Jr.
Make sure you have you scientific calculator handy.
Ed

Offline bucketlist

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2011, 09:08:28 PM »
Aerodynamics for Racing and Performance Cars by Forbes Aird, HP Books. Great book, clear, helpful, very little math, dispels lots of myths. I found it through Interlibrary Loan.

Remember Wikipedia is not an expert source, just a public source for people to give such information as they believe in (or want you to believe in) right or not. Thus the wholly incorrect discussion of the Dr. Kamm's rear end, which actually has nothing to do with lopping the end off flat.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2011, 09:42:21 PM »
Thanks for telling me about Wikipedia and the other references.  A lot of us backwoods guys cannot afford tunnel work and reading books is as good as we can get.

Offline nebulous

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2011, 09:36:57 PM »
Design your best idea , streamline it, build it, then justify it! Then build the next one better!
Jack Costella   
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Offline joea

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 10:57:21 PM »
wobbly...many of the best lsr people did not let the
constraints of a windtunnel get in their way to success...!!..

Offline Rcktscientist

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2011, 03:26:26 PM »
Interesting shot of the Airbus A380 Winglet from damaged aircraft at Paris Air Show a couple of weeks ago. Note construction and shape....Maybe I should have posted under Tony's Avatars Thread :roll:

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2011, 04:02:31 PM »
That's some good-looking tail!
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2011, 04:19:15 PM »
I think that it qualifies  :-D might be a little to wrinkly for Tony though  8-)
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Offline fredvance

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2011, 04:28:18 PM »
And she has a NPL. :evil:
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2011, 09:37:51 PM »
My Goodness!

The tail's fracture lines seem to match some other lines on the young lady's countenance.

Science following nature, no doubt.
5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2011, 11:35:10 PM »
Nice piece of tail! [Sorry, Couldn't control myself].
  Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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