Author Topic: Aerodynamics  (Read 40492 times)

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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 04:04:03 AM »
You've got to remember the reason he's wobbly is because he only uses two wheels! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Pete

Offline racer x

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2011, 05:58:46 PM »
Dose any one have a Video of a  normal street type motorcycle in a wind tunnel with the wheels spinning? And a smoke trail. I think that would be fun to see.
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Offline Nexxussian

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 03:53:09 AM »
John, thanks for the new sub forum.  :-)
Just happy to be here. :-D

Erik

Offline fastman614

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 09:11:40 PM »
Please observe small red car in picture to the left. What's this about Aerodynamics?

Which red car?
No s*** sticks to the man wearing a teflon suit.

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 09:36:04 PM »
Thanks Jon

  First I read a book about aerodynamics then studied all I could find on the internet. After that I took an aspirin for my head and removed all my fairings .I will run Modified from now on .

These are some of my questions.
I'll give it a shot I just hope Blue doesn't tear me up too bad but I will not mention frontal area!

should the point be at the front ?
"It doesn't much matter how you open the hole, it is all about how you close the hole."
Pork Pie Wendover KOA August '06 (Thanks Sparky!) Except for the Bloodhound SSC!


should the point be at the back?
"It doesn't much matter how you open the hole, it is all about how you close the hole."
Pork Pie Wendover KOA August '06 (Thanks Sparky!)


 what are Reynolds numbers?
Osborne Reynolds discovered the parameters that mathematically attempt to describe the changes from laminar to turbulent flows. (Ratio of inertial and viscous [friction] forces.) If you build a 1/4 scale model for a wind tunnel then the speed has to increase by 4X to keep the Reynolds numbers the same. (Similarity Parameters?) Then a 400 mph test has to be at 1600 mph and the air behaves (compresses) quite differently. Now what if we increase the pressure in the wind tunnel?

What is laminar flow?
Classic example is cigarette smoke wisping from the end starts as laminar (parallel layers) and changes to turbulent. Laminar is how everyone (thinks or) would like the "fluid" to go. If we could get the flow in pipes to stay laminar at higher Reynolds numbers it would save huge amounts of energy in pumping fluids. Likewise our taters could go faster with less HP!

why doesn't everyone have golf ball like dents in the fairings?
Because they don't want to spin like a golf ball? Or they do not live in a active, large hailstone area?
 
what about the sides?
See above!
 
What is wrong with covering the front wheel?
What if the front fender really acts like a scoop?

how much effect does rider movement have on the coefficient of drag?
If you change your shape (i.e. bigger butt (I DID NOT SAY FRONTAL AREA!)) or change the closing of the air (length & position of big butt) you change the actual shape of the airflow (which never matches the vehicle BTW) and hence the Cd! The Cd is really just for comparing different aero(?) shapes. Refer to Pork Pie quote again!
 
how does a wind tunnel work? does moving the air at 85 mph then doing math really get the same results on vehicles ment to go 300 mph? Maybe not perzactly, but near enough or so the wind tunnel guys claim!
 
Why does a 50 caliper bullet have a blunt tail end ?
It's a supersonic thing and it works for 7.62 also! The X-1 was shaped like a 50 cal cause that was considered good at the time and it worked out for Chuck Yeager!

is a tear drop a good aerodynamic shape?
Works great for tears and rain drops!

does paint surface texture make any difference?
Just depends on the texture, boundary layer and Ozzy's numbers. (Google shark skin & riblets!)

does air temperature make any difference?
Temperature changes the air density - all other things equal you can go faster in thinner air.
Wonder if submarines can go faster in lacquer thinner?


even if one of these questions gets answered it would lead to ten more.
Sorry, I couldn't get to ten!

See . That is why I just run Modified.  grin.
Buy more aspirin this Subaru never ends! Or make the fairing lots longer like certain green, blue & red machines! And remember this: “... as Sir Cyril Hinshelwood has observed ... fluid dynamicists were divided into hydraulic engineers who observed things that could not be explained and mathematicians who explained things that could not be observed.” - James Lighthill

BTW Rich, even a little red brick sitting on top of a larger red brick with wheels can be improved some!
Enzo Ferrari once said the aerodynamics was for those who can't build engines! But when the HP$$$ run-out then what?
All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 01:25:52 AM »
My day job is a hydraulics engineer and salesmen show me new things they develop or invent.  A fellow showed me a velocity stack for a culvert entrance last Friday.  He claims this improved inlet will make the culvert flow more water.

Note the enlarged throat just downstream where the inlet converges.  Has anyone seen this before?  Will it improve air flow, specifically, to enhance the performance of a velocity stack on a carb inlet?

Offline Tman

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 01:45:13 AM »
I am just a hotrodder, make it small in front and apply the loud pedal! :-D :cheers:

Offline johnneilson

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 02:30:00 AM »
My day job is a hydraulics engineer and salesmen show me new things they develop or invent.  A fellow showed me a velocity stack for a culvert entrance last Friday.  He claims this improved inlet will make the culvert flow more water.

Note the enlarged throat just downstream where the inlet converges.  Has anyone seen this before?  Will it improve air flow, specifically, to enhance the performance of a velocity stack on a carb inlet?

Take a look at the Ratech inlet restrictors used on almost all road race cars these days.
There is a good picture of the cut away and the pressure wave somewhere on the site.
These are used to equalize the motors and work very well.

John
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline racer x

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 08:44:00 AM »
WOW thanks Woody that answers my questions .I still am confused as all get out but it dose answer some.

So the little dents in a golf ball are to help the ball move straight while spinning? That makes sense.

My question about the wind tunnel comes from Craig Breedloves Spirit of America. The large rear fin was meant to keep the car straight. At some point the pressure on the verticle fin lifted the front wheel off the salt. Is that something that a wind tunnel would find? Or is that where the fun is. 

I know that a tear drop is a fake shape. IE a drop of liquid will form a ball. Like in a shot tower. But should I make a fairing like a tear drop or like an egg or like a ball?

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 09:39:59 AM »
like a fish tail  :-P  :?
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline racer x

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2011, 10:00:02 AM »
I have that allready . It just needs to be wider to fair in my legs. I guess the next question is . Fo a tail sectionwould a verticle blade or a point be better?
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Offline k.h.

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2011, 11:16:02 AM »
.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 11:22:26 AM by k.h. »
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline fredvance

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2011, 11:25:57 AM »
Racer x, Is the bike a mps or aps?
WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE 213.470
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Offline racer x

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2011, 11:46:30 AM »
I only run my bike in Modified.OR Modified Partial streamline. If I go altered then I can run any engine and any frame and do all sorts of thing with fairings.I would go broke fast with that many options, :-P
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Offline racer x

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Re: Aerodynamics
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2011, 11:51:44 AM »
.

 Dose the turbulent boundary layer remain intact because the ball is spinning? or because the ball is dented? I mean would a ball with dimples held still in a wind tunnel have a lower CD than a spinning ball with dimples ?
Thank you to all the volunteers