Author Topic: Clarification on push bar  (Read 13150 times)

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Offline Glen

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2011, 12:35:09 PM »
Opens for me, used Firefox and internet explorer on two different computers.
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Offline fredvance

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 01:09:02 PM »
Charles, are you coming to Speedweek or World of Speed?
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 02:37:49 PM »
Be`tween´
prep.   1.   In the space which separates; betwixt; as, New York is between Boston and Philadelphia.

If you look at the following pictures, you will see a round piece of tubing extending out of the body of the roadster. Off of that round tubing is attached what looks like a square or rectangular piece of tubing the same size as the round tubing that extends the width of the car to the round piece of tubing that is extending out of the body on the other side. This in my opinion is the push bar. If you look close enough you will see that the piece of square or rectangular tubing which is the push bar does not extend back to where the holes are drilled, as you can look through the holes and not see the tubing being continued back that far.

Isn't the flat plate exactly what the rule book is talking about as it starts very near the rear of the roadster body and continues forward to encompass the front of the push bar.

Tom G.

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Offline maguromic

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 02:45:23 PM »
To me it looks like part of the frame structure of the roadster, to which the bumper is attached.  :cheers: Tony
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Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 07:20:37 PM »
Charles, are you coming to Speedweek or World of Speed?

Fred, I had a ride to WOS,, that fell through.. I have the time off and can get there,,, so yes WOS is the plan as long as we get the E motor done in time for Loring to test for WOS ( I blew the E motor in April at Maxton) Block has just arrved, I am taking it to the motor shop Wednesday.

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Offline JamesJ

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2011, 09:26:37 PM »
To me it looks like part of the frame structure of the roadster, to which the bumper is attached.  :cheers: Tony

I could go for that, but I dont think that anyone would care if it was like that without the paneling on top of it.

Offline dw230

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »
While there are now three pages of complaints I submitted a rule change request. You too can do the same.

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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 05:15:02 PM »
Off of that round tubing is attached what looks like a square or rectangular piece of tubing the same size as the round tubing that extends the width of the car to the round piece of tubing that is extending out of the body on the other side. This in my opinion is the push bar.

Tom, I'll offer up my thoughts as another perspective here. 

I don't agree with you that the square tubing is the push bar.  To me, that entire "thing" hanging off the back of the car is the push bar.  That isn't paneling on top of those round and square tubes.  That looks to be a piece of 1/2" thick steel plate.  I can see that big giant plate offering up two things: ballast and structural strength.  Paneling in my eyes would be sheet metal that's in place to fill the gap between the body and the push bar should there be a gap at all to begin with.  I see no gap between the back of the body and the push bar and I see no sheet metal in place to fill a gap that isn't there. 

Paneling would be 16 gauge sheet metal that might have louvers punched in it and is held in place my dzus fasteners.  That big piece of plate is welded on, isn't it?
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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 05:33:27 PM »
"It depends on what the definition of 'is' is."  POTUS #42
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2011, 05:50:15 PM »
Tom, I'll offer up my thoughts as another perspective here. 

I don't agree with you that the square tubing is the push bar.  To me, that entire "thing" hanging off the back of the car is the push bar.  That isn't paneling on top of those round and square tubes.  That looks to be a piece of 1/2" thick steel plate.  I can see that big giant plate offering up two things: ballast and structural strength.  Paneling in my eyes would be sheet metal that's in place to fill the gap between the body and the push bar should there be a gap at all to begin with.  I see no gap between the back of the body and the push bar and I see no sheet metal in place to fill a gap that isn't there. 

Paneling would be 16 gauge sheet metal that might have louvers punched in it and is held in place my dzus fasteners.  That big piece of plate is welded on, isn't it?

I took another look at the first pic and would like to further my point.  The big piece of plate is a structural part of the push bar.  If you look below it it appears that additional ballast is in fact bolted to it and the parachute is anchored to it.  That plate is a structural part of the car. 
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 06:21:31 PM »
Nathan,

Thanks for your thoughts on this subject. I am still waiting for a reply from Russ. Maybe he is really busy right now and doesn't have time to answer. If I don't hear from him by Monday I will call him.

I never have thought of a "panel" having a specific thickness, but I have thought of a "sheet" of metal being measured by a gauge type of measurement with the thickest being around 10 gauge.

Thanks,

Tom G.
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 10:29:14 PM »
Nathan, me boy.  I really doubt if you think that is necessarily part of the push bar.  I don't think that car has a flat-pan Hydro, but ask your dad about the joke from the 50's about the Hydramatics getting push started at 35 mph.  That one would survive.

I've got a lot of respect for your opinions on this forum, but I think you may have missed the mark on this one.  No way is that needed for structural strength.  It is a panel -- even if it's 2" thick.  But it's also not the only one.  That's what I'm talking about.

Stan 
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2011, 05:47:34 PM »
Stan, I appreciate the kind words but I think this highlights what some savy racers do better than others and that's pushing grey areas in the rule book.  Obviously the intent of the rule is to prevent horizontal paneling from being placed behind the back of a car for aerodynamic purposes (a pseudo-wing or spoiler).  The rule is presuming that the competitor is in fact using a tubular push bar that is some distance away from the back of the car to begin with.  What I don't think it says distinctly in the rule book is that push bars must be tubular and not plate to begin with.  I don't think the plate was needed for structural strength but that is what it's providing. 

Our ancient roadster has a push bar made out of 3x3 square tubing that also has the 'chute anchored to it.  I don't see anything that prevents someone from making their push bar out of 2x8 rectangular tubing.  The long side of the tube is 8" of chord of an aerodynamic element in effect, wouldn't ya say?  This is where I shrug my shoulders.

If the intent is to prevent aerodynamic advantages, I question whether or not horizontal paneling mounted that low on a car offers any kind of advantage. 
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2011, 06:37:06 PM »
"If the intent is to prevent aerodynamic advantages, I question whether or not horizontal paneling mounted that low on a car offers any kind of advantage."

That's right -- you and I don't know.  And if it did, would it do it on every style of roadster.  Why not mount it 30" above the ground, tie it into the headrest fairing, put a couple of 1/4" holes in it, make sure your truck has the bumper the same height (a 4WD would do), and cover all the rest of the decklid.  A hell of a pushbar, and functional, too.

Nathan, it's getting harder and harder to identify a roadster.  This crap has gone too far.  A little slip here and another here and pretty soon it's the norm.  You, too, have seen it happen.

Give me a call and I'll tell you how I really feel.  About flush doors, flush coupe' pillars, flush gas tank lids, etc.

And -- Stan Back
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Clarification on push bar
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2011, 07:57:44 PM »
Stan,

Here is a video of a coupe in the wind tunnel, 2:20 shows the rear airflow. I wonder what the smoke trail would look like without a top and spoiler. I cannot find one for a Roadster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PoIoQNIoMQ&feature=related

Tom G.

PS. I got a ruling from Russ on this subject and will post it when I have time.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.