Author Topic: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!  (Read 6305 times)

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Offline Kix

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DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« on: April 28, 2011, 05:10:24 PM »
I want to say a couple of things before I share my experience with Diamond Wheels... I apologize if this is a little long, but I trust that you won't read it if you aren't interested.

I really love land speed racing, I really enjoy working with great people, getting help, helping others, and great companies who want to help us all go fast and keep us all safe!  The comraderie of this group of people is amazing and this website and forums are the greatest example of co-op-etition I have ever experienced.

That said, I feel responsible to share my experience with Diamond Wheels and their owner Bill.  I will say up front that this has nothing to do with the quality of his wheels, as their wheels appear to be just fine.  I am posting this to share with you my experience with their (lack of) customer service.  I will also say up front that I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be, in fact lets just assume that I am the dumbest clod of dirt that ever tried to build a race car....... would you treat even your dumbest customer this way?  I'm not telling you not to buy his wheels, you decide.

So - I needed some rear wheels for drag radials at Maxton, so I call them up.  Perfectly nice gentleman answers the phone, I tell him right up front that I am not a wheel expert but I need to get some wheels.  We go over what we are doing, what our setup is, and what we are looking for.  I take some measurements on my car, call him back, we go over the options, and he ships me some wheels.  Pretty simple.

Until I go to Maxton and get a little wheel hop going off the launch, the wheel came completely off the car and I crashed (leaving on a 200mph pass, no less).  I called Bill and told him what had happened and he immediately says "yah, I bet you mounted the wheels on a hub that wasn't 7" in diameter, I have seen it a hundred times!"  Huh?  So I pull the wheels off and check the back of the wheel and sure enough, there is a ring on the wheel a half inch outside the outer diameter of my disc brake hub.  So, I call him back and tell him that it sure would have been nice to know that his wheels only work on hubs that are at least 7" when he was selling them to me.  To which his reply is "hahaha.... well I guess you are getting a lesson from the school of hard knocks, too bad it cost you so much money!"  I didn't say much about his smart a$$ comment, and was really just hoping the guy would build me some wheels that would work and at least give me a discount.  Nope, he quotes me the list price.

So, I called the guy back a couple of days later and told him that I was pretty upset that he didn't even offer to help me out on the price to get the right wheels.... and doubly upset that he thought it was funny.  I don't know about you... but I take going 200+ mph in a car very seriously! From here, he just gets madder and madder - here are some things he said during our conversation:

Yah, I knew exactly what was wrong as soon as you told me! (re-stating the first clue that there is a trend here, in case I didn’t catch on the first time)

I talk to 500 people a month, do you think I remember what the f**k we talked about?  (later in the conversation - he conveniently quoted things from our past conversations)

I’m sure you would like your money back, but you’re not getting a f**king thing from me (I guess we’ll see about that)

I asked him specifically and directly - so, do you not feel that you have ANY responsibility to ensure that your customers get the right products when they call you?

No, I don’t have any responsibility to make sure you get the right wheel – you’re problem is you are cheap – you wanted a cheap wheel and I sold you a cheap wheel – It’s your problem if its not the right wheel (is $100 per wheel cheap?)

I am tired of people calling me and saying it’s my fault their wheels broke (second clue that there might be a trend here?)

It’s not my f**king problem you don’t know what you are doing – My dad taught me “if you don’t know what you are doing, you will learn by your wallet” (then he called me an idiot, and confirmed it when I stopped him and asked him if he just called me an idiot)

This pisses me off and I’m a real jerk when it comes to stuff like this (true statement, he is a jerk!)

I am tired of people f**king saying they are going to sue me (third clue about a possible trend here?)

I asked him again to clarify for me that he feels he has no responsibility whatsoever to help his customers get the right wheels from him?

No, It’s not my responsibility to make sure you get the right wheel, you bought a $69 f**king wheel, what do you want me to do engineer your whole f**king car for you? (which is it $69 or $100, because you charged me $100)

Well, at this point I had heard about enough so I told him I felt sorry for him for being such a miserable and angry person, and got off the call.....

Most interesting thing of all is that I called another wheel manufacturer to get some new wheels and told them the problems I had from a "supposed reputable wheel manufacturer".... I never metnioned his name or the name of the company, but they knew instantly who I was talking about... sad.

Again, I'm not here to tell you what to do... just inform.

Kix



MODIFIED MID-PICKUP #4442

Bonneville Record:     219.35 mph
Maxton Mile Record:   193.14 mph
Ohio Mile Record:       192.80 mph

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2011, 06:02:22 PM »
A friend said to me when I was muttering revenge and bodily dismemberment about something..

"don't worry about him, he'll pull that stunt on some-one even madder than he is and that'll take care of both of them.."

it made me feel better and made a lot of sense, no point getting your hands dirty when there is always someone out there eager to get involved who is meaner, uglier, and shouldn't be on the street doing business either....Sounds like Diamond man will find him sooner rather than later.

Rise above. :wink:
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

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Current Australian E/GL record holder at 215.041mph

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Offline nrhs sales

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 06:07:31 PM »
good info.  I'm not a car racer but always good to know.

By the way, did you see the post right below this one from JavaJoe. Sounds like he had the same issue.  You should both talk to each other and coonsider what to do next.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 06:09:18 PM by nrhs sales »

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 06:13:11 PM »
We all need to "vote" with our wallets for everything - not just bad wheels from anal spots!  :-D
May your next wheels run true and to the end of the course!  :cheers:
All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline Kix

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 06:51:13 PM »
A friend said to me when I was muttering revenge and bodily dismemberment about something..

"don't worry about him, he'll pull that stunt on some-one even madder than he is and that'll take care of both of them.."

it made me feel better and made a lot of sense, no point getting your hands dirty when there is always someone out there eager to get involved who is meaner, uglier, and shouldn't be on the street doing business either....Sounds like Diamond man will find him sooner rather than later.

Rise above. :wink:

javajoe is my racing partner... he is also about 6'5" and 300 lbs.
MODIFIED MID-PICKUP #4442

Bonneville Record:     219.35 mph
Maxton Mile Record:   193.14 mph
Ohio Mile Record:       192.80 mph

Offline Kix

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2011, 06:55:37 PM »
A friend said to me when I was muttering revenge and bodily dismemberment about something..

"don't worry about him, he'll pull that stunt on some-one even madder than he is and that'll take care of both of them.."

it made me feel better and made a lot of sense, no point getting your hands dirty when there is always someone out there eager to get involved who is meaner, uglier, and shouldn't be on the street doing business either....Sounds like Diamond man will find him sooner rather than later.

Rise above. :wink:

True!... Michelle reminded me quickly last night that we all get what is coming to us in the end!  I just want to fix my truck and get back to racing!
MODIFIED MID-PICKUP #4442

Bonneville Record:     219.35 mph
Maxton Mile Record:   193.14 mph
Ohio Mile Record:       192.80 mph

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2011, 07:57:40 PM »
Kix, could you post a pic or two of the wheel and where the problem is?  I'm having a tough time picturing it in my head.  I'm running Diamonds.
 
I've dealt with Bill, and like so many people working in the custom racing fab business, my experience with Diamond was up and down.  The shop looked pretty orderly, stock room made sense to someone who didn't work there, and the wheels look fabulous, but they were about double what you paid, and included Moons and tabs. 
 
You got through on the phone -  I work a couple of miles from his shop, and was able to buttonhole him there - he always seemed distracted - typically so for a small business with a lot going on.  One-on-one, face-to-face, he clearly knew what I needed, and asked the right questions, but it took forever for my wheels to get finished, and he was seldom around when I called. 

I am aware of another racer here on the boards who cancelled an order with him due to slow turnaround.

I waited it out, the wheels look great, but if there is a product problem, I'd like to know more about it.

Mine were custom built with solid centers and 360 weld.  I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but if there is a quality issue with the product, I'd like to be aware of it sooner than later.

Thanks for the thread.

Chris
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline SPARKY

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 08:52:18 PM »
dam, I was hoping they were some where near me ---I would like to have gone by and see if I could have wasted a 1/2 of his time!!!! 8-)
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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Offline Kix

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 08:59:35 PM »
Hello Chris, this is exactly why I tried to be very careful to say that there was not a problem with the quality of the wheels, they actually seemed to be built very well.  If your wheels are solid center you shouldn't have this problem at all.  The wheels we got had a stamped center with a ring stamped into the wheel where it is supposed to ride on the hub or hat.  That ring is stamped at a diameter of about 6.5" or so.  Apparently standard, or at least common on NASCAR hubs.  Not so on a standard disc hat on a 9" axle, and certainly not on ours.  Because the wheel wasn't supported all the way out to this ring it flexed back and forth enough to snap all five studs off when we got some wheel hop on launch.

BTW - we checked out the build on your car, looks like fun!!!
MODIFIED MID-PICKUP #4442

Bonneville Record:     219.35 mph
Maxton Mile Record:   193.14 mph
Ohio Mile Record:       192.80 mph

Offline Saltfever

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 09:24:33 PM »
Kix; Very nicely written . . . and appreciated!

Offline manta22

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 09:31:43 PM »
Kix;

I learned about the same thing you are describing by reading Circle Track magazine. A few years ago they had a very good article on steel racing wheels and all of the wheel  manufacturers stressed that it was important to mount the wheels on a hub with a large enough diameter. Their wheel centers are made with a slight dish in the center and a ring which seats on the hub. When the lug nuts are tightened, it distorts the "dish" and this acts like a Belleville washer to spring-load the centers against the lug nuts. This keeps the lug nuts tight. Without the ring seating on the hub, there is no spring pre-load on the wheel fasteners. and the nuts loosen.

Diamond should have warned you about this, especially since you explained that you were new to this game. Bill isn't unique in the race-equipment supplier game-- I'm sure they get fed up with poseurs wasting their time but you were not some street squirrel calling about wheels. Anyone intending to run LSR should merit some consideration about his application.

I started to get the same treatment from Bill Jongbloed when I visited his shop in Chino years ago to order a pair of his modular wheels. As soon as I produced a cardboard template of my rear spindle and brake caliper, his attitude changed completely. The wheels he made were a perfect fit.


Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Saltfever

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 09:53:09 PM »
Interesting you bring up the Belleville washer concept, Neil. Makes perfect sense now. Even though a taper (like on a lug nut) has self-holding capability it is not that good in a vibrating environment. I always wondered why street wheels never loosened. Thought it might be stud tensile tension but now I see reason.

I think the lesson here is for those running solid, flat-plate, centers. You do not have the benefit of a Belleville washer and you had better check your nuts each run. . . maybe there is a pun intended . . .  :wink:

Offline johnneilson

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 11:00:39 PM »
Yah, I bought a set from brand "D". 15 x 5 and set up for competition hubs (5/8" studs and 90° lugnuts).

They look nice and all, but the runout is so bad that I am not sure if I can get the car into the trailer without severe vibration damage or hitting the sides.

The lesson learned, you get what you pay for. The other set bought from a company who actually makes race wheels told me this would happen. BTW, the new ones even look better without the windows.

John

As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 11:15:08 PM »
Kix;

I learned about the same thing you are describing by reading Circle Track magazine. A few years ago they had a very good article on steel racing wheels and all of the wheel  manufacturers stressed that it was important to mount the wheels on a hub with a large enough diameter. Their wheel centers are made with a slight dish in the center and a ring which seats on the hub. When the lug nuts are tightened, it distorts the "dish" and this acts like a Belleville washer to spring-load the centers against the lug nuts. This keeps the lug nuts tight. Without the ring seating on the hub, there is no spring pre-load on the wheel fasteners. and the nuts loosen.

Diamond should have warned you about this, especially since you explained that you were new to this game. Bill isn't unique in the race-equipment supplier game-- I'm sure they get fed up with poseurs wasting their time but you were not some street squirrel calling about wheels. Anyone intending to run LSR should merit some consideration about his application.

I started to get the same treatment from Bill Jongbloed when I visited his shop in Chino years ago to order a pair of his modular wheels. As soon as I produced a cardboard template of my rear spindle and brake caliper, his attitude changed completely. The wheels he made were a perfect fit.
Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
That is how my MRW's are, concave.  And there are no holes.  Like old school Centerlines, but steel.

Offline Saltfever

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Re: DIAMOND WHEELS - buyer beware!
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 01:16:12 AM »
Can you tell us a little more about the MRW wheel. Is it their off-road or rock crawler? With or without beadlocks?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 01:23:50 AM by Saltfever »