Author Topic: Nuclear Catastrophie  (Read 39107 times)

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2011, 01:40:47 AM »
And it gets worse . . .

#2 exploded. They think this one damaged the pressure vessel. The spent fuel pool was damaged.

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Shigekazu Omukai, spokesman for Japan's nuclear safety agency, said the bottom of the container that surrounds the reactor might have been damaged. Another agency spokesman, Shinji Kinjo, says that "a leak of nuclear material is feared."

Unit #1 spent fuel pool is losing water.

A fire at the #4 unit (one that was not in service) was from the spent fuel pool. Radioactive material was burning OUTSIDE. They are now reporting that they are trying to get the cooling unit working. ON A UNIT THAT WAS NOT IN SERVICE.

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Fire was extinguished on Tuesday at the 4th reactor of Japan's quake-hit Fukushima nuclear power plant, Kyodo news agency reported.

The agency also reported that the 4th reactor was also hit by a blast, caused by the build-up of hydrogen.

Most of the personnel at the plant have been evacuated. There is only a skeleton crew remaining. 

The radiation level has spiked.

Radiation is now three times higher than normal in Tokyo. The wind is now blowing inland.

Four reactors, four explosions.

At the nearby Fukushima Daini facility, engineers have reported signs of three more reactors overheating, leading them to vent gas. A third facility, the Onagawa nuclear power plant, also is under a state of emergency.

Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2011, 04:17:05 AM »
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Radiation is now three times higher than normal in Tokyo. The wind is now blowing inland.

Translation radiation levels in Tokyo have risen to barely detectable levels.

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Radiation levels of .809 micro severts were recorded in central Tokyo at 10.00 a.m. local time (9.00 p.m. U.S. Eastern time)

.809 microsieverts = 0.08 mrem. Normal background radiation at sea level is about 1 mrem per day, so 0.08 x 24 hrs = 1.92 mrem which is approximately the normal background radiation here in Denver. In other words it is a meaningless increase in exposure biologically. As I mentioned in a previous post, radiation can be detected at absurdly low levels. Be VERY suspicious when radiation exposures are expressed as X times normal because that usually means that they now have X times almost nothing. It is a classic method used by the media to misrepresent trivial exposures to get viewer hits and ratings.

That said some of the radiation levels near the reactors during the recent radiation spikes were high enough to raise an eye brow, and indicate that there has been some fuel cladding failure, but the readings also rapidly dropped afterwords, indicating the puff of contamination was very small.

The important thing to remember is that radiation absorbed dose is a product of both the rate of exposure and the duration. In areas like Tokyo the duration is long but the exposure rate is so low that it falls well below the threshold for concern biologically.
Many areas of the world have natural radiation levels several times higher than have been reported, were people live out their lives with no adverse effect of any kind.

Larry

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2011, 11:01:53 AM »
Larry, I continue to be amazed at your calm attitude.

The hydrogen explosion yesterday at the #4 unit came from the spent fuel pool that is open to the atmosphere. The spent fuel ignited and caused radiation levels high enough that the plant was evacuated. 800 people were evacuated. I was surprised only because I can't believe that 800 people hadn't left earlier. In a hurry.

The control room at unit #4 is too hot to occupy.

Units 4, 5, and 6 were shut down for maintenance and supposed to be not a problem. They haven't had electricity to run the pumps either. Now they are reporting high temperatures at all three.

The radiation reported from long distances away seem to hint that maybe they are under reporting the levels at the plant. Foreign journalists have been requested to leave the Sendai area 60 miles away. 16 rescue helicopters are showing radiation levels. The Ronald Reagan 100 miles away instituted decontamination procedures as they fled the area.

"Raise an eyebrow". More like levels that would cause your eyes to bulge out.

Fail safe indeed.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline johnneilson

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2011, 11:20:03 AM »
If memory serves, a single x-ray is about 100,000 microsv/hr or 100 milsv/hr.

The issue though is exposure time.

The issue of contamination on the Ronald Reagan was from a helicopter and crew that landed back on the ship. After decontamination the levels were low enough not to cause alarm.

While a very dangerous and potentally catastrafic, the news is not reported correctly. I also heard the Ronald reagan was moved because of contamination, which it was, just forgot to mention the helo.

John
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2011, 12:30:41 PM »
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Larry, I continue to be amazed at your calm attitude.

I spent 14 years working in emergency management. During that time I tested repaired and calibrated radiological monitoring equipment and was one of the primary trainers for radiological emergency response operations. I also participated in writing emergency response plans for radiological facilities and conducting and evaluating emergency response exercises. I also served as the assistant communications officer so was immersed in the communication streams of several emergencies.

I also helped create one of the Urban Heavy Rescue teams that FEMA sponsors, and spent 5 years on a mountain rescue team.

Lessons learned:

1. The media seldom has a clue what is going on -- we spent more time fixing bad information from the media than we did dealing with actual situations. Therefor take media accounts with a very large bag of salt.
2. You seldom know all the facts even if you are on scene, -- getting excited does not help anyone.
3. The reporting process regarding radiological monitoring is historically a huge problem, it is VERY difficult to get good monitoring data even from trained emergency response personal, and radiological data from untrained sources is 99.99% crap.
It took us years of training to get Phd and masters degree health department responders to report useful radiological data, and even then it was about 30% useless. Under the stress of the moment (just the stress from a simple evaluation exercise) they never could get their head around gathering all the data needed. They also frequently mis-reported actual readings, due to having the equipment set on the wrong range multiplier setting, they reported 100's of mr/h when actual readings were 10's or 1's mr/hr. They could not remember to tell us the actual location or time the readings were taken. They could not remember to write down their measurements and mis-spoke when reporting by radio. They reported readings taken at location A as readings taken at location B. They forgot to include units in their measurements they would report rates of exposure as absorbed dose exposures. (rates would be units/hr, absorbed dose would be units --- they would forget or jumble those units)

As a result it took some detective work to throw out the bad reports and infer the real situation from a body of reports that gave a consistent picture.

4. The public perception of radiation risk is many times higher than the actual risk.
5. Protective actions can cause more harm than good. We considered and rejected the idea of issuing Potassium Iodide tablets to the public for radiological protection because there was a very real risk of killing people due to serious allergic reactions to Potassium Iodide that a small percentage of the population will experience to protect against low levels of radiation exposure that have absolutely zero biological risk.

We are talking about extremely low radiation exposures off site in the context of biological injury. Radiation exposure from a brief whole body dose of gamma radiation is asymptomatic (not reliably detectable even by evaluation of blood tests) at levels of 12-15 RAD, with in modern measuring units would be total exposure of:
120,000 - 500,000 microsieverts -- the media are reporting exposure rates of anything from fractional microsievert rates per hour to 10's of microsieverts per hour in areas off site. In short the actual radiological risk in those areas is essentially zero.
Normal background radiation in most of the world is around 10 microsieverts per day with some areas like here in Denver Colorado having normal background radiation of 20-30 microsieverts. The levels of radiation they are reporting off site are in the first place trivial biologically, second the levels will rapidly drop as decay of the radioactive isotopes occurs.

In the U.S. Annual allowed Occupational exposure rates for non-radiation workers are set at 0.1 rem/year (1000 microsieverts) on top of the normal annual exposure of 0.3 rem/year (3000 microsieverts) from normal background radiation, and incidental exposure of 0.05 rem/year (500 microsieverts) we receive from medical x-rays, high altitude air plane flights etc.

Annual allowed Occupational exposure to radiation workers (which the plant staff is) is much higher at 5 rem/year or (50000 microsieverts) These are considered safe and allowed exposure rates on a continuing basis.

Emergency responders one time acute exposures would be much higher. An employer can allow an individual who works in a restricted area to receive up to 3 Rem / quarter (30,000 microsieverts) ie any 3 month period or total accumulated whole body dose cannot exceed    5(N-18) rems where N is the persons age in years at their last birthday. That means a 40 year old emergency responder could be allowed to receive 5(50-18) REM or an accute dose of 160 Rem (160000 microsieverts).

That said the ALARA guideline is to keep radiation exposure As Low As Reasonably Achievable -- that is why they are doing all the evacuations. It is simply good practice, and probably required by their protective action guidelines, but those levels of radiation exposure are in real terms trivial. They are about as serious as going out in mid day sun without sun screen.

Larry

Offline Bootleggerjim

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »
Amen
I'm an addict with a 2 tire a day habit..........

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2011, 12:37:03 AM »
Larry, you are correct about the dose-time relationship.

U.S. nuclear workers are limited to 50 millisieverts.

I wondered how the workers at Fukushima were getting work done with only 50 left at the plant without going over the limit.

Well, first off the limit in Japan is 100 millisieverts.

The Japanese government was obviously worried about the workers too.

Japan’s Health Ministry raised the legal limit today to 250 millisieverts.

Even with the new limit the last 50 workers were evacuated.

They have abandoned the plant.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 12:43:53 AM by Dean Los Angeles »
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Tman

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2011, 12:41:01 AM »
Thanks for some clarity here guys.  :cheers:

This is after your last reply Dean. Was it 50 workers or the 800 reported?

Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2011, 02:29:18 AM »
Yes the situation has deteriorated quite a bit if they have pulled back the workers.
That means that "on the plant site and nearby" concern about radiation levels is "now" appropriate.

Nuclear reactors are relentless, they do not pause to take a break for anyone. If you don't keep ahead of developments you can get yourself into a check mate situation where no matter what you do, it is wrong.

If reports I have seen that the Japanese refused to accept emergency air lift of portable generators from America shortly after the situation developed, they may now be paying the price for excess pride getting in the way of smart emergency response.

Still no point in second guessing what is happening, as we don't have any useful level of technical information.
There is still no legitimate radiological threat to the U.S. so panic buying of Potassium iodide is a sad commentary on the media's inability to communicate useful information to the public.

At this point only time will tell. The uncovered spent fuel is actually a bigger external radiological threat than the reactors ever were, as they will produce lots of small particulate smoke if they continue to burn uncontrolled.


http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Second_fire_reported_at_unit_4_1603111.html
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Problems for units 3 and 4
16 March 2011

FIRST PUBLISHED 0.25am GMT
UPDATE 1:14am GMT Information from TEPCO spokesman and video feed  

UPDATE 2: 4:10am GMT Update title from 'Second fire reported at unit 4' and information on Unit 3 and 4 from Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano

 

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano has described problems that occurred on the morning of 16 March with Fukushima Daiichi 3 and 4. He also outlined plans to pump water into unit 4.

 

At 8:34am local time white smoke was seen billowing out of Fukushima Daiichi 3. Efforts to determine the cause of this development were interrupted as all workers had evacuated to a safe area due to rising radiation readings. Readings from a sensor near the front gate had fluctuated for some time, although Edano said that on the whole there was no health hazard. Earlier in the morning readings had ranged between 600-800 microsieverts per hour, but at 10am readings rose to 1000 microsieverts per hour. Readings began to fall again from around 10:54.

 

Edano said that one possibility being considered was that the unit 3 reactor had suffered a similar failure to that suffered by unit 2 yesterday, although there had been no reported blast or loud sound, which had been the case for unit 2. The immediate focus, said Edano was on monitoring of levels and checking pumping operations.

 

It was not clear whether the increase in radiation readings were due to the problems today with unit 3 or the ongoing problems resulting from the damage suffered by unit 2, yesterday.

 

Edano also outlined plans for units 4. Preparations were being made to inject water into unit 4, however the high levels of radiation from unit 3 were impairing those preparations. When possible, the water injection would be done gradually as there were safety concerns over pouring a large amount of water at once. The water will be pumped into the reactor building from the ground, plans to drop water from a helicopter having been abandoned. Although he said that "all things were possible" Edano did not believe that recriticality at unit 4 was a realistic risk

 

Second fire at unit 4

 

Earlier, the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said that a blaze was spotted in the reactor building of Fukushima Daiichi 4 at 5.45am local time this morning.  

 

Attempts to extinguish it were reportedly delayed due to high levels of radiation in the area. A spokesperson for TEPCO said that by around 6:15am there were no flames to be seen.

 

The incident at unit 4 is believed to be in the region of a used fuel pond in the upper portion of the reactor building.

 

Origins  

 

Tokyo Electric Power Company issued a notice of an explosion at unit 4 at 6am on 15 March. This was followed by the company's confirmation of damage around the fifth floor rooftop area of the reactor building.

 

On that day, a fire was discovered but investigations concluded it had died down by around 11am.

 

At present it is not clear whether today's fire was a completely new blaze, or if the fire reported yesterday had flared up again.
 
Researched and written
by World Nuclear News

1000 microsieverts per hour, still is not high enough to prohibit emergency action if proper planning is done to minimize shift time. But it takes extensive prior planning and the workers need to know exactly what they must do during their 10 -15 minutes in the building. Since that reading is at the front gate, no doubt exposure rates are significantly higher in the building.

At the time of the SL-1 accident in Idaho, permissible absorbed dose to save a life was 100 rad  (1000 millisievert), to meet that criteria, initial entry teams were limited to shifts of 65 seconds each to perform tasks, with maximum dose received of 27 R with 22 people receiving exposures ranging from 3 to 27 R. These total exposures received in one minute mission time, implied that peak exposure rates in the SL-1 recovery were over 1000 rad/hr (10000 millisievert), possibly 1500 rad/hr (15000 millisievert)

With the LD50 dose* at 450 rad (4500 millisievert) exposure a person would receive a fatal dose in less than 20 minutes at those exposure rates.

*(LD50 dose = the dose that will kill 50% of those exposed within 30 days)

I have no idea what Japanese exposure standards are for critical life saving actions, but even very high exposure rates can be managed by strictly limiting exposure time, and rotating large numbers of people through the rescue tasks. Given the sophistication of modern robotic systems many basic tasks should be able to be accomplished by robotic systems but that also takes pre-planning and availability of the hardware.

The Japanese plant workers may have gotten too far behind the power curve to prevent a major release but only time will tell.


Larry
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 02:55:15 AM by hotrod »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »
I don't think there was any time at Chernobyl that the plant was evacuated.

The doomsday clock keeps ticking whether there are people there or not.

You would think that instead of abandoning work that this possibility would have been discussed in planning sessions the last couple of days.

They will have to mobilize an army of people to do just as Larry says and work for the amount of time the situation will allow.

Some of the Chernobyl workers had a 20 second window to do some work before the had to leave. Permanently.
I saw a picture in National Geographic years after of a field packed with 40 helicopters and hundreds of trucks that were too hot to ever use again.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Tman

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2011, 10:28:05 AM »
I read yesterday that they actually kept one of the undamaged Chernoble reactors operational for YEARS after the one melt down. First I had heard of that?

Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2011, 12:19:17 PM »
The withdrawal of workers was apparently temporary, to allow a radiation spike to dissipate. After a short period of evacuation, they have a small cadre of 50 workers who have returned to the site to continue essential recovery operations.


http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/16/fukushima-16-march-summary/

Larry

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2011, 02:50:58 PM »
It's hard to believe that the primary coolant system is still out of operation. I would think you could have any number of generators on site by now. The sea water is being injected through the fire suppression port.

Part of the problem with the spent fuel pool on unit #4 is that all of the primary rods were removed for maintenance and stored in the spent fuel pool along with what was already there.

I would agree with the Brave New Climate that the amount of heat remaining after 5 days would be low. That assumes no damage, clearly that is not the case here.

All in all, it seems like there is a whole lot more going on than the released information would seem to dictate. Putting more water in the spent fuel pool shouldn't be too hard, should it.

Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Tman

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2011, 03:29:49 PM »
One of the stories I read said that the spent rod pools were ABOVE the containment vessell in those buildings, the ones blowing up?

Offline Geo

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2011, 05:01:04 PM »
Dean, Larry, and all!

When this was first posted I thought, Oh no...

However, this thread has been very enlightening.  Thanks SSS for letting it run.

One diagram I saw has the spent fuel pool above the inner containment vessel on the "second floor" inside the secondary containment walls/roof.  The second containment is concrete all around the primary, spent fuel pool and anything else. Then there is the rain shield thin covering and skeleton that the hydrogen blast blew off.

The spent fuel pool is contained in a concrete building. My question is how hot do the spent fuel rods uncovered become?  I assume not as hot as a useable fuel rod. Then it would not need as much coolant, unless you put good fuel rods in there.  Perhaps that's the issue.

It seems the early report of not being able to connect a backup generator because the plug was an incorrect match is poor planning and no ingenuity. I can understand not having the same phase between US generator and Japan pumps, but an electrical plant not being able to connect wires? I would even twist them together.

Now to go look up the decay rate on nuclear stuff.  My evening is full.  My heart is empty.

Geo