Author Topic: Nuclear Catastrophie  (Read 39116 times)

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Online johnneilson

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #120 on: April 06, 2011, 12:48:40 PM »
Slim,

Leave the thread open. There are differences of opinion here, healthy for debate. Please.

While I don't believe the sky is falling.......yet. I do feel that the truth and the lessons learned will be good for all to see/hear.
We sure cannot trust the media sensationalism.

It is not one failure or mistake that causes airplanes to crash, it is a series of failures and mistakes. This disaster is a perfect example.
Could it happen here? Sure, and with the Graduates coming from the schools today, I am sure it will be a disaster.

John

As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #121 on: April 06, 2011, 12:56:21 PM »
I'll admit that I have found this thread to be very educational and not hysterical at all - and that's good.  Indeed, I've learned more than I expected about the Fukushima incident here than I have from other sources.  Good thing I don't watch TV at all -- otherwise I'd probably be trying to bury our heads in the sand.

I'll let the thread keep running at least for a while.  Thanks for your input, ladies and gentlemen.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2011, 12:38:46 PM »
After two months it’s amazing how much this has dropped off the radar. If news isn’t fresh it disappears.

My first impression within days was there was far worse things going on then they were saying.
Now it comes out that now that they have gone inside reactor #1 for the first time since the explosion that reactor #1 melted within hours. And they knew it. Not 5% like they initially said, not 70% like the U.S. said later, but virtually all of it. It appears that reactors #2 and #3 probably are in the same condition. No one has been in reactor #2 since March 14.

The key was the huge amount of water they have been pumping in. Water has to go somewhere. There hasn’t been enough steam to account for the water, so it must be leaking out the bottom. There isn’t enough space to store all that water. The tsunami flooded all of the buildings. Where did that water go?
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So helpless were the plant's engineers that, as dusk fell after Japan's devastating March 11 quake and tsunami, they were forced to scavenge flashlights from nearby homes. They pulled batteries from cars not washed away by the tsunami in a desperate effort to revive reactor gauges that weren't working properly.  The meltdown started almost immediately—and workers didn’t even realize it.
Workers thought the reactor’s backup batteries would buy them eight hours, not realizing those batteries were down.

The effects of the earthquake alone appear to have been catastrophic. The concrete containment vessels may have broken, some of the pipes entering the reactor certainly did. The containment vessel and spent fuel pool may be near collapse in reactor #4.

The extreme delay between the time that gases should have been vented and actual time the valves were opened manually (the operator received a very high dose of radiation.) allowed the pressure inside the vessel to be 50% over the designed maximum pressure.

Tests done in the U.S. on the same reactor type showed that at lower pressure the containment dome may not hold pressure. This may account for the hydrogen gases accumulating in the building. Normal venting takes place out of the very tall stacks in the pictures.

In the numerous pictures linked below I don't see any heavy equipment. I don't see any clean up of the extensive debris outside the building. I don't think ANY work has been done in two months. Tepco realized early on that there was no fixing the situation and has decided to squirt water until . . . no one knows. I think they will eventually have to inject liquid nitrogen to freeze the water so that repair work can start. As long as highly radioactive water continues to leak out no work can be done. They keep saying cold shutdown within months and cleanup in a few years. How can you predict something that you have no idea what the condition is right now? I don't think there will be a clean up. I think they will end up entombing it like Chernobyl.

The only changes to the initial effort to spray and inject sea water with fire engines is the replacement of the fire engines with electric pumps and sea water with fresh water. There was a lot of press mid-March about the lights being on in the control room. You can see the red and blue power cables in the outside shots. That seems to be the only power that has been restored. Later pictures still show blank screens and indicators in the control rooms.

The damage from the explosions was massive. It's interesting that reactor #4 had a huge hydrogen explosion that had to have been from exposed fuel rods in the spent fuel pool. The fuel from the reactor had been removed. That has never been explained, and the next mention was pictures that show water in the pool.

Damage photos
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm
All of the photos are here. There are 15 pages and a zip file.
http://cryptome.org/#more

Identify the tsunami barrier in this photo. The breakwater is to separate the cool inlet water from the warm outlet water. This is a conventional breakwater made from concrete forms that look like kids jacks. They are effective at keeping normal wave action from eroding the breakwater. On the left side you see the beach and some rocks. I don't see anything that looks like a purpose built tsunami barrier.

This photo is the wave hitting the Fukushima Daini plant 10 miles up the coast. How did they escape the same fate?

An elevator in the building.

Reactor #3 is in there somewhere. Everything in this photo is extremely radioactive. How do you start fixing it?

70 photos in zipped format
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-70/daiichi-70.zip
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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #123 on: May 19, 2011, 04:35:58 AM »
Stories have already come out that one meltdown has occured and a couple of fuel rods have melted through a containment vessel. I don't have time right now to look up exactly which one, but its bad. Nothing can be done at this point except wait for them to melt far enough down then cap it like russia did. The real issue here though is how close they are to the water. Radiation levels in the ocean and drinking water are at horrible levels. The damage from this hasn't even yet to begin.

Offline Tman

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2011, 01:13:32 AM »
This year my 1986 Yamaha TT-225 has been taken apart and is being rebuilt.  The engine is amazing.  The main bearings are as big as the ones I had on the 500 cc Matchless.  There are steel inserts in the cases where the main bearings rest.  Everything is strong, well designed, and made from good materials.  This was their bottom of the line trail bike.  A simple rebuild will give me another 10 or 15 years of use.  Engineers designed this bike, managers allowed this bike to be built, and people made it.  All cared about me, the customer.  They did more than the minimum that was needed.

The old service manual is easy to understand.  Lots of nice drawings and pictures.  Areas where a fellow could easily make a mistake are clarified.  Some real live mechanics and engineers wrote this book.  They care about me, the fellow fixing the thing.  They put in extra effort.

This bike is 25 years old.  All the parts I order from Yamaha.  They have all that I need for a complete rebuild.  The parts arrive at a reasonable time after they were ordered.  Everything is made in Japan at a reasonable price and all fits together perfectly.  Company management set up this supply system and they run it well.  They really care about the person who uses their product. 

This makes no sense and is a waste of time according to the modern business model.  The walrus in no expert on anything, but I feel that this is a window showing Japanese culture.  These are a hard working, caring, meticulous people, and selfless in some ways.  It is a real shame that they are victims of this BS.  I sure hope this mess gets cleaned up soon.

   

 

Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2011, 11:51:26 AM »
It is extreme events and rare circumstances that teach us the most valuable engineering lessons.

This plant was built using the engineering best practices of the day it was designed and built. It had tsunami protection walls 18 ft high, but the actual wave that struck had peak wave heights 45 ft above sea level. Some areas of the coast also dropped 4 ft below their pre-quake elevations. This was the strongest quake to hit Japan in about 1000 years. In some areas the tsunami ran 6 miles inland.

These circumstances will change design limits for major structures for every coast line in the entire pacific basin, as we now have a new bench mark of what is reasonably possible in the way of combined earthquake tsunami threats to harbors and coast facing facilities.

Many times post disaster reconstruction is in the long term very beneficial, like a forced urban renewal program they have a unique opportunity to make major design and urban planning decisions without all the typical private property constraints imposed by existing structures. I suspect you will see coastal cities built with high ground refuge locations or roadways designed to allow residents easy movement inland to high ground. Tsunami protection levies will likely be strengthened and increased in design height and perhaps built in depth with double protection for some facilities and locations.

It has basically rewritten the urban planning and construction rule book for coastal areas at tsunami risk. Due to the location of the quake in a highly industrial country, it is not only one of the 5 strongest recorded earth quakes in modern history, but with produce a vast amount of instrumental data both from formal seismic instrumentation but indirectly from security camera, and hand held video camera footage they will have enough raw data to keep researchers busy for 20 years evaluating how various structures responded to the quake, and analyzing the damage incurred by various designs.

Due to the nature of this quake, it will serve as a dress rehearsal for the quake we will have someday in the pacific north west. Hopefully planners and the public in northern California, Oregon, Washington state and British Colombia are paying attention.

Larry

Offline half-fast

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2011, 12:27:17 PM »
There is an excellent presentation put together by Areva:

http://www.slideshare.net/dungeon_keeper/areva-fukushima-7556450

or do any search for areva fukushima presentation

Have read most of the thread, and generally agree with Hot Rod Larry, (I'm a lifelong HP) but if anyone really wants to talk about this PM me, been around them all my life and yes there are several GE MK III's in the US and yes I have been in/on them too.

As for the explosion, that is the way the plants are designed.

As for exposure, TEPCO has reported no one has been exposed to > 25 Rem......so radiation induced lethality is a non-starter for me.

As commentary, the Japanese, IMHO, are way ahead of the US on the spent fuel issue, as they reprocess, and the spent fuel pools contain a minimum amount of spent fuel, drastically different in the US, and this event has caused a pendulum swing in the US regulatory arena.



For Tepco:

 

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/index-e.html

 

site boundaries currently:

 

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/f1/index-e.html

 

and daily reports:

 

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/

 




Offline Tman

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #128 on: May 21, 2011, 03:21:08 PM »
This is what Rapid City SD (my home) did aftrer our disastrous 1972 flood. The entire greenway along the creek was turned into park/floodway so we dont have to lose another 238 people. Houses, businesses etc were removed from the path of destruction. Areas on the Red River in ND/MN have done the same, my wifes cousins have pictures of their flooded hood in the 90s and now after it has all been razed and turned into park.

I have always agreed that us humans are stupid, we alwaysw live as close tyo water as we can for conveniance then wonder when Mother Nature spanks us!

AND THANKS FOR ALL THOSE LINKS! This facinates me.

Many times post disaster reconstruction is in the long term very beneficial, like a forced urban renewal program they have a unique opportunity to make major design and urban planning decisions without all the typical private property constraints imposed by existing structures. I suspect you will see coastal cities built with high ground refuge locations or roadways designed to allow residents easy movement inland to high ground. Tsunami protection levies will likely be strengthened and increased in design height and perhaps built in depth with double protection for some facilities and locations.

It has basically rewritten the urban planning and construction rule book for coastal areas at tsunami risk. Due to the location of the quake in a highly industrial country, it is not only one of the 5 strongest recorded earth quakes in modern history, but with produce a vast amount of instrumental data both from formal seismic instrumentation but indirectly from security camera, and hand held video camera footage they will have enough raw data to keep researchers busy for 20 years evaluating how various structures responded to the quake, and analyzing the damage incurred by various designs.

Due to the nature of this quake, it will serve as a dress rehearsal for the quake we will have someday in the pacific north west. Hopefully planners and the public in northern California, Oregon, Washington state and British Colombia are paying attention.

Larry
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 03:31:11 PM by Tman »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #129 on: May 21, 2011, 06:07:19 PM »
Quote
As for exposure, TEPCO has reported no one has been exposed to > 25 Rem......so radiation induced lethality is a non-starter for me.
You trust TEPCO to provide accurate information? This is the same company that sent workers in without a dosimeter. "We had 2500 but all but 400 were destroyed in the earthquake". Really? You couldn't borrow some from another facility?

In 1952 a nuclear weapon test series called Tumbler-Snapper consisted of 8 low yield weapons.
Quote
Tumbler-Snapper released about 15,500 kilocuries of radioiodine (I-131) into the atmosphere (for comparison, Trinity released about 3200 kilocuries of radioiodine). Although this was only some 40% more than that released by Buster-Jangle, unfavorable weather patterns caused dramatically higher civilian radiation exposures (about 15-fold). The total thyroid tissue exposure amounted to 110 million person-rads, about 29% of all exposure due to continental nuclear tests. This can be expected to eventually cause about 34,000 cases of thyroid cancer, leading to some 1750 deaths.

During Operation Upshot-Knothole in 1956 John Wayne filmed a movie called the Conquerors, about Genghis Khan. The movie was filmed outside St. George, Utah. The federal government reassured residents that the tests caused no hazard to public health. The cast and crew numbered 220. Statistically there should have been about 30 cancers in this group. 91 of them had developed some form of cancer and 46 had died of the disease.

Yes, we all need clean, safe, green nuclear power. Our government will protect us all.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2013, 02:17:02 AM »
One of the geotechnical engineers at the other end of our office showed me this.  It looks like we are going to build something big right over the top of an earthquake fault and he doing some research.

Ultimately we need to figure out a safe place to put these atom plants and to know when to prepare them for an imminent earthquake.  Science is making baby steps in that direction.  This little movie shows the types of information they are working with to come up with a solution.  It is amazing.  All of this is happening right under the Team Go Dog Go world headquarters and I did not have a clue.  The Pacific tectonic plate is grinding against the edge of the plate Oregon is on as it curls downward into the mantle and melts.  The movement sets off all sorts of tiny earthquakes.  The movie is here:  http://www.pnsn.org/tremor/overview   Go to "TREMOR MAP" at the top of the page.

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2013, 09:43:04 AM »
WW   A mind could be occupied for hours on that link---wow
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Offline floydjer

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #132 on: October 28, 2013, 08:34:44 AM »
www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/10/24-3   Obamacare will fix that right up. :cheers:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:41:41 PM by floydjer »
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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #133 on: October 28, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »
www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/24-3   Obamacare will fix that right up. :cheers:

"Page not found
The requested page could not be found."

It didn't take them long to find your link Jerry!

Pete
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:14:27 PM by Peter Jack »

Offline floydjer

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #134 on: October 28, 2013, 12:37:37 PM »
www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/24-3   Obamacare will fix that right up. :cheers:

"Page not found
The requested page could not be found."

It didn't take them long to find your link Jerry!

Pete
I knew that would happen if I removed my foil hat
I`d never advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone...But they work for me.