BSA B50 -500 APG Build

[Koncretekid]

.....  So although the purchase of a Megasquirt system makes sense, even without the fuel injection, the question is how to have active gauges indicating AFR and Cylinder Head or Exhaust Temperature along with the controller/data logging function?.... Tom

MegaSquirt can't read AFR directly it needs to receive it from a wide band O2 sensor controller.  So what I'd recommend is using something like Innovate's MTX-L .......

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-mtxl-gauge-sensor-controller-3844-p-467.html


..... that you mentioned as it has the sensor, controller and the gauge and can send the AFR to the MS.  We use 2 on Hooley's Stude and I'll probably use one on my car with the MS.  The gauge is pretty easy to read even under the light levels on the salt.

I'm not aware of an EGT gauge that you can view and that can also send data onto a recording device, but they might be out there.  We have had a gauge in the Stude in the past, but at high speed it is something that can't really be looked at very easily as the gauge is small.  Will you have time to view them on a run?  You can easily pass thermocouple data from a sensor onto the MS.

DIYAutoTune.com's MS3-Pro, their version of MS, does now have Wideband AFR target tables so that possibly could work to your advantage with the limited time to get the fuel mapping correct.  I'm not sure how fast it learns.  I think it is still going to be hard to develope fuel maps without dyno time or street time like your friend although we had lunch the other day with a friend and his wife in Colorado that builds circle track and other high HP motors for a living and he has been using some of the new 'self learning' fuel injections systems and is quite impressed with how fast you can tune them on the dyno,

Sum
 

Sum,
It seems that the Innovate systems gauges are compatible with the Megasquirt controllers, which is good news if I decide to use 2014 as just a learning phase about logging, using the Innovate MTX-L along with the MXT-D gauges, one of which can measure EGT or CHT and connect to their PL-1 Pocket Logger.  I agree that reading gauges is almost impossible at full speed, but the MST-D gauges also have led lights around the perimeter which can be programmed like "idiot" lights which might catch my eye if they are bright enough.  Otherwise, it's nice to have a look at AFR and CHT before the start of each run as well as the end to get a sense of  where things are.  The logging feature with an SD card which can be plugged into a laptop, read, and recorded are what I'm after for now.  Later EFI would of course require the use of a controller, and I'm convinced that the M.S. system with its infinitely variable programming could be a real asset.

The Bazazz bike EFI systems have the ability to be self mapping during a dyno run, according to what people tell me.  They say it dramatically reduces the hours on the dyno that normally go into mapping.

Bo,
The M.S. pro systems also have the ability to tune themselves.  I haven't checked out the Bazazz bike EFIs yet.

Tom,
With a blown bike motor it is worth putting some fuel thru' the blower, as this will cool the blower lobes/screw and also will keep the charge temp down. It doesnt need to be much, maybe as little as 10-15%

Good luck
Neil

Queezyryder,
I presume you are talking about adding methanol to gasoline in a draw thru system.  In fact straight methanol of even water alcohol injection would help cool the intake charge.  I haven't run across many successful draw thru systems, especially not on single cylinder bikes.  At least, the record books don't show any Blown records in excess of N.A. records for pushrod records up to 1000cc.  In fact, at AMA/BUB the only Blown pushrod records in excess of N.A. are for turbocharged Honda CX-500 and CX-650 watercooled, 8 valve twins, and even those records are within reach of our N.A. bikes.

I had to chuckle while reading the build diary from Thumper Talk's MXRob when a reader posted that he had the chance to see how a carburetor works.  "Man those things are complicated!  Fuel injection is so much simpler!"  That is, after you have learned about terms like EMS, ECU, IAC, TB, PCB, SMD, CKP, VR, COP, FET, TPS, MAP, MAF, IAT, STIM, CLT, PWM, IRQ, ADC, baro, aircor, lambda, speed density, and Alpha-N, and of course transistors, diodes, resistors, thermistors, hall sensors, VR sensors, etc., not to mention computer and geek-speak.  Don't know if I'll be able to learn all that in the next few years.

Tom

[Sumner]

...I agree that reading gauges is almost impossible at full speed, but the MST-D gauges also have led lights around the perimeter which can be programmed like "idiot" lights which might catch my eye if they are bright enough.  Otherwise, it's nice to have a look at AFR and CHT before the start of each run as well as the end to get a sense of  where things are.  The logging feature with an SD card which can be plugged into a laptop, read, and recorded are what I'm after for now. ..... Tom

I had the perimeter lights programmed on the 2 MTX-L's programmed for different air/fuel ratio points, but found I really couldn't see that at all on the run.  It was there, but just not a real help to me.  Not saying it won't be for you.  On the lower speed runs I could monitor the air/fuel, which is something Gordon who sold us the C & S carb wanted us to do once to check the initial tune on it.

I like the new PL-1 logger kind of but for one thing.  It is suppose to work with a remote to turn it on and off.  There is a place to plug one in but as of last fall that feature had not actually been implemented yet.  Not sure if it is now or not.  We have it at the passenger door and the person that helps to get the driver in turns it on along with the cameras.  The button and light on it are a little confusing and one run didn't get recorded as I think it was turned on and then back off.  The indicator light for when it is working is not that good out there in the high light situation.

Other than that the PL-1 and other boxes worked well for us vs. the old LM-1.  We are data logging 16 items on the car and they all worked except for the two EGT feeds for some reason.  I need to check those out as I wired all of this in kind of a rush on the bench before Hooley showed up with the car at my place and then we had to move all of that into the car and do all the other things that still had to be done before leaving for the salt.  We were hoping to go up Thursday but arrived Sunday  ,

Sum

[Koncretekid]

While waiting for my piston to be ceramic coated and new longer barrel studs to arrive, I decided to have another go at an airbox which will pipe high pressure air from the front of the bike with 1-1/2" openings back into a 2" tube and then into both sides of the airbox.  The box is an 8" length of 5" diameter 16 gauge exhaust pipe with 16 gauge flanges welded on, so it is about 150 cubic inches, or over 4 times the size of the new 36 cubic inch motor.  The rear is welded shut, but the front will be held on with a dozen 10-32 machine screws.  It has a 2-1/2" tube welded thru it, so I can use my large K&N filter within.  On the left side, I have a choice of places to cut 2" holes for the inlet, but on the right side, the oil tank filler is in the way of a rear opening.  I'm wondering if it makes any difference whether the air comes in near the front, adjacent to the filter, or at the back behind filter.  In order to do that on the right side, I would have to cut and re-attach the oil tank filler neck.

Anybody have an opinion before I cut?

[tauruck]

Tom, that's a difficult one.
I'd say put the holes where the salt won't reach.
Do you think two are enough?.

[Old Scrambler]

Tom, as you move down the course, the intake pressure will be greater than the loss through the carb. I would try mount the intake tubes to the chamber at an angle.........near bottom or top........baloney cut..........to increase the immediate volume of air for start-up.

I have been looking at something similar for my Tiger Cub.........but not sure if legal for Modified.

[Koncretekid]

Tom, that's a difficult one.
I'd say put the holes where the salt won't reach.
Do you think two are enough?.

Mikey,
Holes are in the front of the fairing just outboard of fender, salt or no salt!

Tom, as you move down the course, the intake pressure will be greater than the loss through the carb. I would try mount the intake tubes to the chamber at an angle.........near bottom or top........baloney cut..........to increase the immediate volume of air for start-up.

I have been looking at something similar for my Tiger Cub.........but not sure if legal for Modified.

Dennis,
Entrance to airbox has to be 90 degrees to clear frame.  I put 1-1/2" ABS stubs in the fairing when I made it, but they've never been used.

I finished the airbox except for final paint.  Entrance holes are at the front of the box directly adjacent to the K&N filter that is inside.  I'm figuring that air entering the box, if it works, doesn't care where it comes in.  High velocity air will slow down and be converted to slower, higher pressure.

The runners will have to go up and over the cool air ducting to connect to the front. Why go to all this trouble?  For the approximately 1 psi at 160 mph, which is 8% at the Flats.

[Koncretekid]

A couple more photos of the front air intakes.  On the right, the large inlet is for the cooling air, the small one is for the intake.

[Old Scrambler]

That looks great, Tom.

I see the plumbing being an important contribution to your success.  I am trying to stop any losses to the air-intake when at speed. Maybe covering the back 1/2 of the air-cleaner will help.

Your bike not only looks fast............IT IS FAST

[Koncretekid]

New Compression Ratio

A couple of weeks ago I measured my combustion chamber by injecting oil in thru one of the two spark plug holes until it started to come out the other hole.  I then put the spark plug in and continued to fill the top hole until I could see the oil starting to come up that hole.  The amount of oil it took was 43-45 cc on two trials.  Not being sure if this was exact, I made a lexan plate to bolt to the head and measured the combustion chamber which was 86.6cc.  Then I bolted the plate to the cylinder after backing the piston .650" down the hole.  I measured the amount of oil it took to fill.  Moving the piston down the hole .650" is equivalent to 109.7 cc. the actual amount of oil to fill it was 58.25cc, resulting in a net dome volume of 51.45cc. Subtracting this from the head chamber results in a net combustion chamber of 35.15cc. To this, I added back in the volume that would be added by the head gasket, 7.6cc, to get 42.75cc.  This is almost the same number I got using the "cheater" method, so I'll use 43cc.  Because the new motor is 598cc, the new compression ratio would be (598 +43)/43).  The resulting static compression ratio would be 14.9 to 1.  I have already clayed the head and found that I have a clearance of .035" at the edge of the piston and a nice squish band (what little there is) of .035" to .045".  So the question is whether I can get away with 14.9 to 1 with a 92mm bore and two spark plugs?  I can add base gaskets to reduce the CR but that would also increase my squish band clearance beyond what I would like to run.  One base gasket is .017" thick, so this would change the CR down to 14.1, 2 gaskets, 13.3.

I'm open to suggestions.

Tom

[Koncretekid]

Now that I've got the new 600cc top end back together, I'm working on a data logging system.  It's one thing to make a successful run with the motor staying together, but what was the actual A/F ratio and engine temperature during the run?  Maybe more than I need to know but now I've got a wideband A/F gauge, exhaust temperature gauge, and a manifold air pressure gauge that also reads RPM and has a shift light function.  The small pocket data logger will sit in a small pocket attached to the upper frame gusset.  From the left side view, you can see that there is a sub-plate that mounts to frame brackets and separates the backs of the gauges from the ignition coil mount.  The steering damper is also connected to the same frame bracket and has obviously seen the salt before.  You can also see that the Scitsu tach mounts on its own rubber suspension on the subplate.  The upper plate holds the new gauges and will be supported on rubber tubing to give it some isolation from the vibrations.  I think I'll also need some kind of heat shield to protect it from the exhaust.  From the right side you can see the rats maze of wiring I have to hook up, and not shown are the O2 sensor and its wiring, the MAP sensor and its wiring, and the EGT sensor and its wiring, and the bloody 4 foot long patch cords that connect each gauge together, because Innovate, in its infinite wisdom uses the same gender of connector for input and output?  Not exactly designed for motorcycle use.

I'm trying to find some compact water resistant connectors.  There are lots of them from the Orient that look really nice, but shipping takes up to a month.  I guess I'll need a new mini-crimper to install them.  Fun winter project!

[Old Scrambler]

Tom........too much for my weak eyes   For me to read them while on a run, they would have to be in-front of the fairing

The aircraft or marine industries may have some connectors. 

Did you measure the piston clearance after compressing the base and head gaskets?  If your using more than a .025 thickness head-gasket (copper) you  might want to try a thinner unit.  Otherwise Dave tells me the base-gasket could be lost to a thin layer of sealer. Will be interesting to see what you measure for clearance after a few heat-cycles.   

[Koncretekid]

Did you measure the piston clearance after compressing the base and head gaskets?  If your using more than a .025 thickness head-gasket (copper) you  might want to try a thinner unit.  Otherwise Dave tells me the base-gasket could be lost to a thin layer of sealer. Will be interesting to see what you measure for clearance after a few heat-cycles.   

Dennis,
I had the head torqued down with no base gaskets and a used head gasket when I clayed it, so I don't think things can get much closer except due to thermal expansion.  I use a Cometic head gasket that is .044" thick new, and doesn't change after several runs at Bonneville (4 - 7/16" studs torqued to 35ft-lbs.) From what I've read, .035" is about as little clearance as you want, and that's what I've got.  When I got the piston back from ceramic coating and finally bolted things back together, I added a .017" base gasket with a smear of silicone sealant.  I will, of course, be running it on the East coast (Loring) before Bonneville, so better safe than sorry. Still over 14 to 1 CR.

Yesterday, I made a new head pipe and lowered the O2 sensor location so as not to interfere with the cool air intake.  It is about 12" from the exhaust valve, which makes it about 12" from the outlet as well.  I've read that being so close to the outlet will result in inaccurate low RPM readings, but I don't plan to run there often.

The second photo shows the proposed EGT probe location.  Innovate do not indicate where it should be located, only that the spring end should be at 90 degrees to the pipe.  I can't imagine why the small 1/8" diameter smooth round end of the probe would really care whether it is rotated or not, but I'll follow what I believe is correct.  A few diagrams would have been helpful ( I wonder if they ever read these postings on forums?)

Tom

[Koncretekid]

The Innovate Pocketlogger has to be attached to the bike but has no mounting system.  So I made one.  Shown is the progression of the drawing to the 20 gauge steel cut-out to the finished product.  The "pocket" is lined with foam tape which holds the logger snugly.  The back is partially open to accept the power in as well as the patch cable from the gauges.  It uses an SD card to log the data.  I wanted to be able to remove it when not in use to protect it from the salt.  The entire dash panel will also be removable by removing 4 nuts from studs, and disconnecting the wires.

[Old Scrambler]

Looks as if you have solved the origami puzzle

Very few will know its a BEEZA with that dash-board

[Peter Jack]

Nice little fabrication job Tom. 

Pete