Author Topic: BSA B50 -500 APG Build  (Read 460922 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Koncretekid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #465 on: February 06, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »
I forgot to mention the scope of this welding project.  I used about 45 feet of new chrome moly tubing on the rebuild and there is about 20 feet of the existing original mild steel tubing remaining, 4 tanks of Argon, 1/2 of a tube of filler rod and about 10 tungstens.  There are 56 tube junctures of which I welded 42, 60 gusset, bracket, and motor mount welds of which 39 are mine, and 10 ferrules of which 4 re-welds are mine.  The bare frame weighs 55 lbs.  I used a $400 Thermalarc 99S for all of the welds.  As I have never used any other Tig welder, I cannot comment on the performance other than I was able to get some very good welds, especially when welding  them in the vise which eliminated the visual and positional problems.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 10:07:41 AM by Koncretekid »
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2342
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #466 on: February 06, 2013, 05:21:37 PM »
Yes, welding on cold, damp steel definitely plays hell with the weld bead.....   I seem to remember that aircraft requirements for Tig welding 4130 recommends preheating with an acetylene torch....

You will love TIG once you have a foot pedal amperage control.   Just remember, practice makes strong & good looking welds.   Looks like you have good penetration.   It's better to have good penetration & an unsightly bead versus a great looking bead with poor penetration......
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Ed Bennett, Speed Team Doo Kansas City fab shop.
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #467 on: February 06, 2013, 08:47:34 PM »
Your welds are looking pretty good for no amperage control "on the fly".  :cheers:

Looking at the frame I do see one potential problem. The seat hoop is sticking up a long way and only supported at one point on each end. This is another crack waiting to happen since it's going to start shaking like a tuning fork once the engine is singing. I think you need to gusset it to the tail fairing support on both sides. Simple flat plates on the outside welded to both uprights should take care of it.  :-)

Have you considered welding in a carb support?  :-P
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline DND

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #468 on: February 07, 2013, 12:09:23 AM »
Hi Tom

Neat bike looking very nice, you will get the hang of it just takes some time.

One thing you could do is sharpen 6 or 8 tungstens and put some holes in a wood block for each, then you can just keep going and not have to re-sharpen your tungsten each time you ' Dip the Wick '

Better for kinda keeping the flow going, then sharpen all at one time.

On my Miller i had a 0-5 second timer installed so i could spot tack thin sheet metal and not burn through, the timer would start when the arc started and it worked great.

Neat machines to have!!

Don

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5126
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #469 on: February 07, 2013, 03:56:41 AM »
Ha ha ha, dip the wick is a sport where I live. That's great advice. Thanks. Koncretekid, you'll be a pro soon. It's so nice that the members here chip in with help and advice.

Offline Koncretekid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #470 on: February 07, 2013, 06:32:20 AM »
Yes, welding on cold, damp steel definitely plays hell with the weld bead.....   I seem to remember that aircraft requirements for Tig welding 4130 recommends preheating with an acetylene torch....
 :cheers:
Fordboy
From everything I've read, no preheat is required for thinwall 4130 in the normalized condition.  Thin wall is described as less than .120". I've used .060".  However, they also recommend welding at "room temperature", from 60* -70* F.  I don't think 45* in the humidity we have here is N.S.qualifies! Knowing what I know now, I will always use a bit of preheat to at least drive off any condensation that may have precipitated during the night.

Another reason I had trouble, especially when I ground out an ugly weld and tried to re-weld, was that I was using an air die grinder.  I'll bet there was a bit of oil and water being blasted out with the exhaust air from the grinder.  In the end, I ground, wire brushed, and cleaned with acetone as well as pre-heating.  Don't I wish I knew that then.  You just can't be lax about cleaning.

Your welds are looking pretty good for no amperage control "on the fly".  :cheers:

Looking at the frame I do see one potential problem. The seat hoop is sticking up a long way and only supported at one point on each end. This is another crack waiting to happen since it's going to start shaking like a tuning fork once the engine is singing. I think you need to gusset it to the tail fairing support on both sides. Simple flat plates on the outside welded to both uprights should take care of it.  :-)

Have you considered welding in a carb support?  :-P
Ed,
I have considered a couple of gussets at the locations you suggested.  With your recognition that this may be a problem area, I will add them.  Thanks.  As for a carb support, I think you are referring to the time my carb got loose and almost fell off.  Actually, it was the nuts that hold the adapter on that came loose, so now I Loctite them.  A carb support would be a good idea, if the Mikuni flatslide actually had a convenient lug to facilitate this.  I do have one on my B50 roadracer on which I use an Amal Mark II, which had a spot to drill and tap a couple of 1/4" holes for a support.

Hi Tom

Neat bike looking very nice, you will get the hang of it just takes some time.

One thing you could do is sharpen 6 or 8 tungstens and put some holes in a wood block for each, then you can just keep going and not have to re-sharpen your tungsten each time you ' Dip the Wick '

Better for kinda keeping the flow going, then sharpen all at one time.

On my Miller i had a 0-5 second timer installed so i could spot tack thin sheet metal and not burn through, the timer would start when the arc started and it worked great.

Neat machines to have!!

Don

I ended up buying 20 Tungstens and sharpened all of them before I started each session.  The wood block is another great idea to make them easier to pick up with the glove on.

Thanks for the ideas.  And Mikey, I don't know about becoming a pro - - it would spoil my image of being a Jack of All Trades .....but a Master of None!  But I look forward to doing another project.

Tom
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:35:20 AM by Koncretekid »
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!

Offline Koncretekid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #471 on: February 07, 2013, 10:25:30 AM »
I decided to add those two gussets that Ed (Whizbang) suggested, but my "welding" shop was only 37* F this morning.  So I loaded everything up and brought them into my inside shop which is attached to my garage, which is attached to my house.  Actually brought in the frame yesterday and used a borrowed oxyacetylene torch to try some stress relieving. It was hard to keep the clusters at the dull red color required, but I wrapped the tube junctures with fiberglass insulation immediately upon removing the heat.

The gussets, welded in the warmth of my inside shop, cleaned well and pre-heated with a propane torch were much easier than welding in the cold. These should keep the forward unbraced seat tube from vibrating as much.
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Ed Bennett, Speed Team Doo Kansas City fab shop.
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #472 on: February 07, 2013, 10:46:05 AM »
That's exactly what I had in mind.  :-D

My shop (2 car garage) is heated and air conditioned by virtue of being in the basement of the house. Before I got a tig I couldn't weld at all if it was cold or hot out without opening the garage door and being exposed to the elements because the fumes from mig or gas welding wafted throughout the house and SWMBO couldn't develop any appreciation of the aromatic bouquet. :evil:

I've found that with the tig as long as I clean the material before welding, she can't even detect it. Good for marital bliss the tig is, and I can weld in comfort any time I want to. :cheers:
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4137
  • What, me worry?
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #473 on: February 07, 2013, 11:25:48 AM »
Whizzbang;

It's not only TIG --- my wife gets annoyed by the soot particles in the air from lighting my oxy-acetylene torch.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline salt27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1734
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #474 on: February 07, 2013, 10:05:37 PM »
My wife put the kibosh on putting oil filters in the fireplace.

I thought they made a romantic glow. :-D

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5126
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #475 on: February 08, 2013, 12:34:00 AM »
Ha ha ha! My wife is a little different. She made her own soot removing bearings.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5503
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #476 on: February 08, 2013, 08:41:37 PM »
Rose likes to make soot.  She would dice up firewood from the trees after I dropped them when we were first married and she still likes to do it. 

Offline Koncretekid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #477 on: February 17, 2013, 07:57:58 AM »
Rose likes to make soot.  She would dice up firewood from the trees after I dropped them when we were first married and she still likes to do it. 
Bo,
How about that safety gear?

Following are photos of the frame after painting.  I found a 4800 watt electric heater on sale, re-wired my shop for a 30 amp breaker, and let it run overnight before painting.  If some of you people are not familiar with the new low VOC paint,  this is what I found out.
1.)  It doesn't cover very well.  The formula is now 8 parts paint, 2 parts hardener, and 1 part thinner.  Now you have to buy more paint and less thinner and you need about three coats to cover well.
2.)  It of course doesn't "dry" in the normal sense; it cures - - slowly at 60* F.  That means the overspray sticks to everything in the shop including walls, floor, clothing, me, and even my glasses, but not on the bottom of the frame rails, before it cures making a sticky mess.  I covered the walls and equipment with poly, but now the floor is a messy black smudge.  Maybe time to paint the floor anyway.
3.)  Wear a good paint mask designed to filter out organic vapors.  I'd hate to think what those sticky chemicals could do to the inside of your lungs.
4.)  Use a drop cloth on the floor (I didn't) and wear disposable coveralls (I didn't), and disposable shoes (I didn't.)
5.)  Good ventilation would be a help.  I had very little so I was always painting in a fog.  Now studying it with a strong light, I can see places where one coat of paint did not cover so I can see the primer underneath.
6.)  You probably don't want anyone around who would be offended by four letter words while you're trying to paint under and inside your tube chassis.

Tom
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!

Offline Duck-Stew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #478 on: February 17, 2013, 01:01:25 PM »
Looks good!  Thanks for the tips.  8-)
Team UnorthoDUX

Online 55chevr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2446
Re: BSA B50 -500 APG Build
« Reply #479 on: February 17, 2013, 01:56:26 PM »
Tom- That frame is looking better than the last one.  Looking forward to watching you race it.

Joe