data recorders

[BALS aSALT]

tony, point taken. i think with the build just starting. i have 8 months to figure out what and how many and all that. didn't realize it could be so overwhelming. this recorder will be my first, and i barely know how to turn this thing on let alone peck at this damn keyboard. takes 10 min. just to peck this out.

[wobblywalrus]

Bals, you are right about being complicated.  During 2012 we will do nothing to the bike except race and figure out data collection.  A whole year devoted solely to the subject.  It will take that type of commitment for me to learn it.

[BALS aSALT]

Bals, you are right about being complicated.  During 2012 we will do nothing to the bike except race and figure out data collection.  A whole year devoted solely to the subject.  It will take that type of commitment for me to learn it.

man, i just don't think i could devote a whole year learning a system, unfortunately for me i guess i'm going to have to. do you think the "old guys" had recorders? hell no...............trial and error. and lots a seat time. i think their way would be more fun. more$$$$$, but more fun.

[dieselgeek]

Bals, you are right about being complicated.  During 2012 we will do nothing to the bike except race and figure out data collection.  A whole year devoted solely to the subject.  It will take that type of commitment for me to learn it.

man, i just don't think i could devote a whole year learning a system, unfortunately for me i guess i'm going to have to. do you think the "old guys" had recorders? hell no...............trial and error. and lots a seat time. i think their way would be more fun. more$$$$$, but more fun.

Remember, it doesn't have to be that hard.   A lot of guys go out there with big plans, a million inputs, and spending over $10,000 dollars, and find that their plans don't work out like expected.   That's why I recommend starting out small with a modular system that you can grow into.   I wouldn't even think about pressure sensors.  Maybe suspension travel (if you have one), wheel speed (or driveshaft speed) and GPS speed are nice.  Obviously engine RPM, coolant temp, oil temp, perhaps oil pressure, throttle position, battery/system voltage are nice.  I say, start with those.  It's the "big plans" that can get you spending more money than you need at first.  All the systems described above are modular enough to do this without breaking the bank on initial investment.

[johnneilson]

The other option is to find a data guru and work with him/her for a while. I have been on teams where this is the norm, some times, they bring the hardware and install at the track.

there is a book out published by sae, written by segers on anaylisis techniques for race cars. It is very good, and can give you some ideas about what might be needed on your project.

I know a guy who has a rental car (road race) and he has a aim system on board. he made up a formula to monitor the abuse the car gets (over rev, rushed downshifts and off track excursions). He then monitors this on each driver and makes the drivers pay for abnormal abuse.

I did a quick search and found this;
 Analysis Techniques for Racecar Data Acquisition - SAE BOOKSTORE 
Analysis Techniques for Racecar Data Acquisition ... Data acquisition has become an invaluable tool for ... background in automotive engineering, Jorge Segers ...

John

[Rex Schimmer]

Dieselgek,
I would think that with either an electronic or constant flow fuel injection monitoring fuel pressure would be extremely important, as fuel pressure is what makes them both work.

Rex

[dieselgeek]

Dieselgek,
I would think that with either an electronic or constant flow fuel injection monitoring fuel pressure would be extremely important, as fuel pressure is what makes them both work.

Rex

I've never monitored fuel pressure electronically - never felt it to be important. 

We put a gauge on the rails to see if it's working when we warm the engine or fire it in the pits - that's about it.  Regulators don't fail often enough for it to be on top of my list of things to watch.  I monitor Air:Fuel so I know if there's a mixture problem, and my EMS is still commanding the amount of fuel I expect, then there is a pressure or supply problem.   That way, I just saved the car owner money because running the pressure sensor wasn't necessary.

Keeping it simple is something a lot of racers (and keyboard theorists) overlook - by a lot.  Look at the Spectre guys - they went just about as fast as the 411 car, on a fraction of the technology, time, and expertise - just by winging it.  I think that says a lot about the value (or lack thereof) of over-thinking the approach.   Like I said earlier, too many people are out there with 10 and 15 thousand dollar logging systems and aren't getting any more useful info than the guy who bought the Sportsman Logger from Racepak...  but, that's just my way of approaching it.  Other methods work too, I'm sure.

I just like getting good bang for the buck.   There's not enough money for most of the guys in this sport to be wasting it on fancy stuff.   All my opinion of course!

[Nitroholic]

Bals,

I may have missed it but what type of vehicle are you building?

If you would like give me a call here at Racepak (949) 709-5555 ext. 1570 and we can discuss your options for your vehicle.  When helping a customer first thing I do is learn about their vehicle and it helps me then lead them in the right direction on where to go.  What ever you do, don't over analyze this.  This is far more simple that people imagine it to be.  As far as sensors goes to monitor just start with your basics which are your basic vitals of your vehicle and engine.  Example Engine and driveline speed and oil pressure.  For land speed racing I always recommend a distance sensor from a wheel RPM/GPS to give you a reference for comparison.  From there then you just need to look at what things on the motor you would like to monitor to assist you in your tuning and diagnostics.  Most data loggers you can always add on to them for the future.

For the most part I am at all El Mirage, Bonneville Speedweek, and world finals races so I would be glad to give you a tutorial on basic data logging do's and don'ts for land speed racing.

Hope this helped you and what ever direction you go make sure the data logger suites your vehicles and your needs.

Donny Cummins

[DallasV]

Donny,
Never got  chance to  to you and John, Dave and all the rest of your crew on being the first 300 roadster. Freaking Awesome  . Most impressive feat of the year. (settle down streamliner geeks, liners have been going 400 for over half a century). My opinion may be a little bias.

[Nitroholic]

hahaha, thanks Dallas

[johnbeck]

Nitroholic , you are a man now , from hereonout you will be called Don Cummins not "donny".
So it is said , so it will be done.

[Rex Schimmer]

Dieselgeek,
I certainly agree with you regarding keeping the data recording system simple as to much time can be spent on trying to analysis to much data that may not be important or not understood. I also can see that on an electronic injection system that is in closed loop with and O2 sensor that the EMS will compensate for slight fluctuations in fuel pressure but in a constant flow system, such as a Hilborn system, which is full open loop,  knowing the fuel pressure at full load and WOT is very important as this is what controls the amount of fuel being supplied to the engine. At Bonneville, which is really a WOT situation, a properly set up constant flow system can be just as affective and certainly much simpler than an electronic system.

Rex

[dieselgeek]

Dieselgeek,
I certainly agree with you regarding keeping the data recording system simple as to much time can be spent on trying to analysis to much data that may not be important or not understood. I also can see that on an electronic injection system that is in closed loop with and O2 sensor that the EMS will compensate for slight fluctuations in fuel pressure but in a constant flow system, such as a Hilborn system, which is full open loop,  knowing the fuel pressure at full load and WOT is very important as this is what controls the amount of fuel being supplied to the engine. At Bonneville, which is really a WOT situation, a properly set up constant flow system can be just as affective and certainly much simpler than an electronic system.

Rex

I was talking EFI, pardon me for that.  Yes, I agree with you then - in an MFI setup, it's important.  However, one thing I disagree with is the "WOT situation" - all Ive seen indicates that it's damned important to have your part-throttle tune in check.  Even the N/A car I tuned this year, I had a hard time convincing the owner we needed to do part throttle tuning on a loadbearing dyno...   until he saw his logs and how little time he spent at WOT and how important it was to be able to accelerate the car in lower gears at part throttle.  WOT just spun the tires in the first 2 gears, but feathering it gave us far better acceleration (and speeds in the measured miles).  Also, good luck getting a mechanical system to compensate for the baro changes up there.  Especially if you're seeking max horsepower. 

[BALS aSALT]

Nitroholic , you are a man now , from hereonout you will be called Don Cummins not "donny".
So it is said , so it will be done.

god has spoken

[BALS aSALT]

wow, first i want to say thanks for all the input. i just might be calling a mr.cummings at racepak. but i still haven't made up my mind. maybe i should ask which system would be the simplest but has room to grow? . if that makes sense? i mean start off with the basic paramiters, but can add more later.