1973 camaro AA/CGC

[38flattie]

Why not consider Production or Altered glass ? then add a quickchange for Gas Coupe class?

Why not take Leadfoot's advice? Looking at his car and records, he could be a valuable source of info for you? We should all be so lucky!

[Ron Gibson]

Might get a little dicey. I think GM went to a policy and in their advertising, of using "Corporate engines" putting  chev engines in Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs etc. Don't know about big blocks, might give some wiggle room. My heads say Pontiac on them, not just the valve covers.
Don't have a rule book handy, but I think there was something about intake bolt patterns being the same. These aren't the same as Chevy so can't be a chevy?. Don't remember what class they were talking about.
If you have an Oldsmobile with valve covers that say Oldsmobile but the block casting numbers say it's a chevy, does that mean you have a chevy???

Just my $.05  worth.
Ron

[38flattie]

Might get a little dicey. I think GM went to a policy and in their advertising, of using "Corporate engines" putting  chev engines in Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs etc. Don't know about big blocks, might give some wiggle room. My heads say Pontiac on them, not just the valve covers.
Don't have a rule book handy, but I think there was something about intake bolt patterns being the same. These aren't the same as Chevy so can't be a chevy?. Don't remember what class they were talking about.
If you have an Oldsmobile with valve covers that say Oldsmobile but the block casting numbers say it's a chevy, does that mean you have a chevy???

Just my $.05  worth.
Ron

I may be wrong, but I don't think it matters, because in the scenario you describe, everthing would be part of the same 'engine design family'. If it truly is the old Pontiac block, it's a different family. It appears to me to be a BBC.

I'm far from an expert, though.

[RichFox]

Once again the answer is in the rule book. If the head bolt pattern and bellhousing bolt pattern is the same as any engine that was available in the car as sold new, it's not an engine swap. So any small block of Rat motor is legal in a '72 Camaro. Deck height or name on the heads has not been  an issue. The rule 4.N would seem to contradict that as deck height and cam location are part of the requirements to be the same engine family. "All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification" Can't use a stock timing chain with a raised cam. Can't use stock rods or pistons with a raised deck. Unless truck stuff fits. When I started this I thought I knew the answer. Head and bellhousing bolt pattern. Now I'm not so sure. Raised decks are clearly called out as being an example of an engine swap.

[fredvance]

Nope

[RichFox]

2010 rule book. Page 40. 4.N second paragraph. An engine family is defined as engines which are made with the same basic material, have the same bore centers, crankshaft supports, DECK HEIGHT, CAM LOCATION, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc. All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification...This would seem to disallow raised cam or large bearing cam blocks as in some large inch BBC clones. Engine that always have been accepted to my knowledge.

[BALS aSALT]

2010 rule book. Page 40. 4.N second paragraph. An engine family is defined as engines which are made with the same basic material, have the same bore centers, crankshaft supports, DECK HEIGHT, CAM LOCATION, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc. All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification...This would seem to disallow raised cam or large bearing cam blocks as in some large inch BBC clones. Engine that always have been accepted to my knowledge.

this is why i say it should count as an engine swap.

[BALS aSALT]

Might get a little dicey. I think GM went to a policy and in their advertising, of using "Corporate engines" putting  chev engines in Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs etc. Don't know about big blocks, might give some wiggle room. My heads say Pontiac on them, not just the valve covers.
Don't have a rule book handy, but I think there was something about intake bolt patterns being the same. These aren't the same as Chevy so can't be a chevy?. Don't remember what class they were talking about.
If you have an Oldsmobile with valve covers that say Oldsmobile but the block casting numbers say it's a chevy, does that mean you have a chevy???

Just my $.05  worth.
Ron

my heads say pontiac also.

[RichFox]

What it says on your heads makes no difference. As far as I know only the bolt pattern and the fact that they are still rocker arm heads counts. They could say Ford on them and still be legal.

[BALS aSALT]

well in that case...............that should work in my favor.

[RICK]

Okay,,,I've had my chain jerked before,,, but not like this. You mean to tell me you "don't know" what that thing in your floor is? As expensive as that thing should be, I would know exactly what it was, who assembled it, what lift, duration, ratio, rod length,etc., etc.
 And I'm no expert (i once mistook a 1916 Buick engine for a 1919 Haynes-Apperson), but come on,,,,,,that thing is big block Chevy. With that odd-ball intake on there, I can't tell who's heads those are, and with that motor plate, I can't tell who's block that is. But if its a GMPP Bow-tie, Merlin, World, Dart, EPW, Wal-Mart, etc. It should not matter. It's a big block Chevy or a replacement of. That's it's intent.
  The intent of the 'motor swap' rule, is for you to install a Packard, Studebaker, or Hudson engine in your Camaro.
 So next time you post, I'd like to see a complete spec sheet, including wrist pin length, wall thickness,and weight(these are the things I would know if that were my engine)

 And what about number 4= lots of pictures.


    Waiting for the pics,  RICK

[LittleLiner]

Yeah.  What Rick said . . .    plus consider this:

Once you get this issue of whether you engine is or is not a swap, then you have some options picking a class.

What are you after, record wise?   If a record is your goal (regardless of class) it makes sense to go after the lowest existing record that your car can be made to fit.  (Even then you might not set a record but it is the easiest path to a record)

I just looked at the current records list.  http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/BNIrecs_cat_c.htm.  The slowest class for unblown AA engines is the AA/CPRO record of 237.373.  The next slowest record is AA/CGALT at 246.011.  The gas coupe record for AA/CGC is 252.106. 

In the unblown classes, assuming you are not running a quick change rear, wouldn't you prefer to go after the lowest record?  That means build for the Production class.  And to do that you need an engine that is NOT a swap.

On the other hand if your engine turns out to be considered a swap then look at AA/CGALT.  To move to altered all you have to do to either a Production body or Gas Coupe body is cover up the headlights.  You DO NOT need to swap engines (although you may) to be legal in Altered.   

Still with me? . . . .OK –   So if your engine is considered a swap or if you don't want to run Production for some reason (like adding non-production spoiler to the back of car) then run in the Altered class. 

Running a Blower - If you add a blower then you are out of the Production classes (72 Camaro’s did not come with a blown engine so the blower would have to be (by definition) a non-stock blower).  And a non-stock blower will qualify you as a CGC without the need to have either a quick change or an engine swap.  The current record for AA/CBGC is 179.490

Lots of options . . . .

[robfrey]

According to Little Liner, sound like you are in pretty good shape as far as classes go. Lot's of options! Options are good!

[BALS aSALT]

Okay,,,I've had my chain jerked before,,, but not like this. You mean to tell me you "don't know" what that thing in your floor is? As expensive as that thing should be, I would know exactly what it was, who assembled it, what lift, duration, ratio, rod length,etc., etc.
 And I'm no expert (i once mistook a 1916 Buick engine for a 1919 Haynes-Apperson), but come on,,,,,,that thing is big block Chevy. With that odd-ball intake on there, I can't tell who's heads those are, and with that motor plate, I can't tell who's block that is. But if its a GMPP Bow-tie, Merlin, World, Dart, EPW, Wal-Mart, etc. It should not matter. It's a big block Chevy or a replacement of. That's it's intent.
  The intent of the 'motor swap' rule, is for you to install a Packard, Studebaker, or Hudson engine in your Camaro.
 So next time you post, I'd like to see a complete spec sheet, including wrist pin length, wall thickness,and weight(these are the things I would know if that were my engine)

 And what about number 4= lots of pictures.


    Waiting for the pics,  RICK

refer back to reply 48 and 50. and i don't know who's jerking your chain but it sure as hell aint me. i know exactly whats on the floor of my shop. i am just not sure if it is a swap or not. and if not, then in my car what class? thats all. but mr. kennedy is fixing me up so there.

[BALS aSALT]

Yeah.  What Rick said . . .    plus consider this:

Once you get this issue of whether you engine is or is not a swap, then you have some options picking a class.

What are you after, record wise?   If a record is your goal (regardless of class) it makes sense to go after the lowest existing record that your car can be made to fit.  (Even then you might not set a record but it is the easiest path to a record)

I just looked at the current records list.  http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/BNIrecs_cat_c.htm.  The slowest class for unblown AA engines is the AA/CPRO record of 237.373.  The next slowest record is AA/CGALT at 246.011.  The gas coupe record for AA/CGC is 252.106. 

In the unblown classes, assuming you are not running a quick change rear, wouldn't you prefer to go after the lowest record?  That means build for the Production class.  And to do that you need an engine that is NOT a swap.

On the other hand if your engine turns out to be considered a swap then look at AA/CGALT.  To move to altered all you have to do to either a Production body or Gas Coupe body is cover up the headlights.  You DO NOT need to swap engines (although you may) to be legal in Altered.   

Still with me? . . . .OK –   So if your engine is considered a swap or if you don't want to run Production for some reason (like adding non-production spoiler to the back of car) then run in the Altered class. 

Running a Blower - If you add a blower then you are out of the Production classes (72 Camaro’s did not come with a blown engine so the blower would have to be (by definition) a non-stock blower).  And a non-stock blower will qualify you as a CGC without the need to have either a quick change or an engine swap.  The current record for AA/CBGC is 179.490

Lots of options . . . .

ok, which class DOES NOT REQUIRE that all the factory stuff works. i don't want to deal with lights, horn, turn signals, stop lights. hi/lo. i just want a race car. next, i am going CBGC, just not yet. got such a good deal on bullet, figure cut teeth in unblown gas. then switch when its time.