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Author Topic: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?  (Read 18995 times)

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Offline johnneilson

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 02:29:02 PM »
One other thought that we must ALL keep in mind.

These people who design and build these miracles of speed need to be supported both financially and with technology.

But most of all, they must not be regulated out of the ablility to dream, think and pursue these accomplishments.

Too much racing has been hamstringed into submission.

John
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As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline joea

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2010, 02:29:29 PM »
...and wallet size...
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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2010, 04:08:24 PM »
..... an extra mile of run up is nice too........
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Michael LeFevers
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Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline bbarn

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 05:10:57 PM »
Quote from: Kiwi Paul on September 25, 2010, 01:57:40 AM
...and now Rob Frey has gone a completely different route..........Thoughts, Anyone? :?

Here are some thoughts that Rob and I have followed in our design: First, the entire car is to be designed in 3D solid model before the anything is purchased or welded. This allows us to look in detail at the problems we will face in the manufacture and assembly steps. Hopefully, this will eliminate/mitigate the gotchas that invariably pop up in projects and help keep the costs down.

Second, build and load the design to have the CG and CP in the most optimum locations. We don't want to build a car, then try and figure out how to make it stable by loading weight in the nose/tail or build an oversize tail fin to adjust the CP. Everything we plan on putting on the car has a reason for being there and is hopefully the most aerodynamically efficient it can be.

Third, when it comes to the flat vs. non-flat bottom design, here is what we came up with. Let's assume we have a flat bottom design makes 3000 pounds of down force. What happens if we only need 2000 pounds of down force to maintain traction? Obviously, there is no "aero tuning" that you can do to adjust the down force generated by the flat bottom. That extra 1000 pounds of down force becomes nothing but drag. On the other hand, what if you need 4000 pounds of down force to maintain traction? Where do you get it? Add weight?

That is the idea behind the wing on the rear. Rather than try and control the airflow under a flat bottom car, we decided that it made more sense to let it flow and manage it with effective aero design. Using the wing, we can dial in/out down force during a run. If we need more traction, add more wing, if not, get reduce the drag a wing producing lift causes by decreasing lift (down force). The rear wing on our design is capable of putting out in excess of 10,000 pounds of down force via a change in angle of attack and use of the flap at 400 MPH. We don't think we will need quite that much, and we believe that is way more than you could get from just a flat bottom design.

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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 06:31:34 PM »
BB...
let me bring your attention to a couple of things.... none of those 4 cars that ran 400 last week had a horizontal wing.... they are not airplanes.... we want them to haul azz not "fly".... secondly, none of those cars had aero devices to create downforce... we want our cars to be aero neutral without drag induce downforce.... balancing a lsr car is easier with ballast then trying to balance with varring wind and air conditions.... there has been people who have used wings before for downforce that has ended up badly... Lessman doesn't use his anymore and ACK never put his back on his bike liner after that Odem crash.... hummm seems to me those were some bright ideas some "aero" guys suggested...... yep, lets see how "Blues" bright ideas work out for ya.... build that cage strong....

to the thread topic.... "traction controll"
kent
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Offline jl222

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2010, 06:59:15 PM »
Quote from: 1212FBGS on September 25, 2010, 06:31:34 PM
BB...
let me bring your attention to a couple of things.... none of those 4 cars that ran 400 last week had a horizontal wing.... they are not airplanes.... we want them to haul azz not "fly".... secondly, none of those cars had aero devices to create downforce... we want our cars to be aero neutral without drag induce downforce.... balancing a lsr car is easier with ballast then trying to balance with varring wind and air conditions.... there has been people who have used wings before for downforce that has ended up badly... Lessman doesn't use his anymore and ACK never put his back on his bike liner after that Odem crash.... hummm seems to me those were some bright ideas some "aero" guys suggested...... yep, lets see how "Blues" bright ideas work out for ya.... build that cage strong....

to the thread topic.... "traction controll"
kent

  Kent  you ever heard of Fred Dannenfelzer?  386 MPH in a friggin lakester and guess the rest.

                                JL222
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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2010, 07:08:33 PM »
yep..... i know about Freddies lakester..... pretty sure Blue had nothing to do with that wing  :roll:.... lots of ballast in it as well.... what about that liner with the wing and tail separation at speedweek! pretty spectacular explosion!!
Kent
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Offline RichFox

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2010, 07:31:43 PM »
What about Ack? he came close with one wheel drive. I learned what we already knew. More that one way to skin a cat.
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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2010, 07:39:10 PM »
yep all 4 vehicles aero neutral..... oh and traction controll!!!
Kent
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Offline Freud

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2010, 07:42:33 PM »
QUOTE:      More that one way to skin a cat.

What about a salmon?

FREUD
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Since '63

Offline RichFox

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2010, 08:11:27 PM »
OK. I'm caught. I never skinned any cats or fish. Don't think I want to. I do think aero neutral makes sense.
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Offline racergeo

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2010, 09:40:05 PM »
I think BBarns and Rob Frey are about to lose there LSR virginity. Stick it to em Kent!!!
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Offline RogerL

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2010, 11:53:36 PM »
Just for the record, i still use a wing on my car. we record the down load and like what we are seeing. the trick is to use an airfoil shape that has low drag. i don't remember the NACA number for our wing but it is a low drag configuration. we have tested the setup in a wind tunnel and again like the direction. once we get the CNG (compressed natural gas) figured out, think we will be able to run some good numbers.

For the record, i am not a fan of using tunnels for down load. requires a long explanation of why i don't think it is a good idea for Bonneville. i still have a video of my crash in 1990 with a "tunnel car" as evidence.

Roger Lessman
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Offline RogerL

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2010, 12:03:46 AM »
sorry for the triple post. can't figure out how to delete two.





Fixed...  8-)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 09:05:14 AM by Stainless1 »
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: What have we learned from the 4 cars that have just gone 400?
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2010, 02:17:19 AM »
The recent improvements in materials, manufacturing tolerances, and design methods are not obvious, but they are a big factor.  Lots of little improvements to many small things are adding up to better performance.
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