Author Topic: NACA 66 Special A/BGS  (Read 598385 times)

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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #150 on: February 05, 2011, 09:25:17 PM »
Rob,  I suspect that much of the time since your previous drawing postings has been consumed in the CAD conversion, and that not all that much real design progress has been made--although clearly some has.  With that in mind, much of the unsolicited comments below are probably wildly premature but, for what they’re worth:

Structural
   Cockpit looks inaccessible--better dummy up a prototype and try getting in and out of it with helmet, firesuit, Hans, gloves, shoes, belts etc. before freezing the design.
   Peculiar locations for some braces in the cockpit area.
   The CAD model of the frame may give you a file easily accepted by a finite element program--suggest you make use of it, particularly the sections aft of the driver.  Looks pretty scary right now.  Especially with the upper rails removed. 
   Frame rail splices--it would be good to verify that the joint mechanisms will, in fact, carry the loads that are expected and be sufficiently rigid and vibration resistant.  (That means test results, not just someone saying so).  You may want to consider bolted flanges if there is doubt--if they were good enough for Al Teague...
   Rear axle bending load reinforcement, as depicted, is completely inadequate.  Need to tie one side directly to the other across the top and bottom of the differential housing.  See off-road pickup truck type arrangements, or better.
   
Plumbing
   Waste gates?
   Intercooler looks to be the classic “too much core depth” and “not enough frontal area” to be particularly efficient.
   Consider mounting the turbo(s) lower and more central with a horizontal “updraft” intercooler above them with airflow then exiting directly rearward into the intake plenum.  Eliminates a lot of tubing, turns, and heat rejection, and can have more frontal area for the cooler.     

Systems
   Front wheels to be shrouded or is the area (and any components) in front of foot plate allowed to accumulate salt?
   Room in cockpit for pedals, steering gear, fire bottles etc?
   Battery over bell housing may not like the heat and vibration and obstructs access to clutch and transmission.
   Brakes?  On rear wheels or driveline?  What kind of differential?  Are the flaps going to be absolutely coordinated with each other so as to avoid creating a turning moment?  Each of these components could produce a steering bias and since the amount of “side bite” the solid front wheels may have is rather speculative, they bear a good deal of consideration.  (Costella rear track is very narrow and has no flaps).   Note what, dollars-to-doughnuts, is a steerable front rudder on the American Motors liner pictured previously.


Looking forward to future updates!

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #151 on: February 05, 2011, 09:37:25 PM »
3000lbs of down force from those wings..... WOW..... think about that...... and what do ya think static weight is gonna be?
kent

Offline SPARKY

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #152 on: February 05, 2011, 10:17:23 PM »
IO  It "appears to me that the two turbos blow thru from the out sid to a colecter in the midddle and the bring the cooler air UNDER the turbos  I think he is trying to stay away form convective heat
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline robfrey

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #153 on: February 05, 2011, 10:29:19 PM »
3000lbs of down force from those wings..... WOW..... think about that...... and what do ya think static weight is gonna be?
kent

3500lb
center of gravity will be just a few inches in front of the turbo compressors.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #154 on: February 05, 2011, 10:56:10 PM »
Rob,  I suspect that much of the time since your previous drawing postings has been consumed in the CAD conversion, and that not all that much real design progress has been made--although clearly some has.  With that in mind, much of the unsolicited comments below are probably wildly premature but, for what they’re worth:

Structural
   Cockpit looks inaccessible--better dummy up a prototype and try getting in and out of it with helmet, firesuit, Hans, gloves, shoes, belts etc. before freezing the design.
   Peculiar locations for some braces in the cockpit area.
   The CAD model of the frame may give you a file easily accepted by a finite element program--suggest you make use of it, particularly the sections aft of the driver.  Looks pretty scary right now.  Especially with the upper rails removed. 
   Frame rail splices--it would be good to verify that the joint mechanisms will, in fact, carry the loads that are expected and be sufficiently rigid and vibration resistant.  (That means test results, not just someone saying so).  You may want to consider bolted flanges if there is doubt--if they were good enough for Al Teague...
   Rear axle bending load reinforcement, as depicted, is completely inadequate.  Need to tie one side directly to the other across the top and bottom of the differential housing.  See off-road pickup truck type arrangements, or better.
   
Plumbing
   Waste gates?
   Intercooler looks to be the classic “too much core depth” and “not enough frontal area” to be particularly efficient.
   Consider mounting the turbo(s) lower and more central with a horizontal “updraft” intercooler above them with airflow then exiting directly rearward into the intake plenum.  Eliminates a lot of tubing, turns, and heat rejection, and can have more frontal area for the cooler.     

Systems
   Front wheels to be shrouded or is the area (and any components) in front of foot plate allowed to accumulate salt?
   Room in cockpit for pedals, steering gear, fire bottles etc?
   Battery over bell housing may not like the heat and vibration and obstructs access to clutch and transmission.
   Brakes?  On rear wheels or driveline?  What kind of differential?  Are the flaps going to be absolutely coordinated with each other so as to avoid creating a turning moment?  Each of these components could produce a steering bias and since the amount of “side bite” the solid front wheels may have is rather speculative, they bear a good deal of consideration.  (Costella rear track is very narrow and has no flaps).   Note what, dollars-to-doughnuts, is a steerable front rudder on the American Motors liner pictured previously.


Looking forward to future updates!


You missed a bunch of other problems.
Please list one or two at time please.
Bracing across the rearend is nonexistent YET. I need to have the rear in my possession to finish the design and tie the bracing together. No sense in drawing a dream brace right now. The bracing will tie into the side bolt bells of the Winter Extremeliner rear. We plan on keeping the flaps independently controllable so that if the car decides to take off, we can fly it back to the salt safely.

BTW, we have build a dummy cockpit from pvc and its no problem to get in and out but thanks for your concern.
You seem to know a lot about  intercoolers. Where did you get this experience. I did have the intercooler installed like you are recommending but this actually worked out better. Don't you worry about that battery. I can remove it and the mount if I have to service the clutch. I got an awesome set of tools.
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #155 on: February 05, 2011, 11:30:16 PM »
Rob, just don't do like I saw Eddie Hill do one time and "FLY" the clocks!!  :cheers:  :cheers:
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2011, 12:11:53 AM »
Rob,
From your reply to "Interested Observer" do I understand that you are planning to use an air to air intercooler?? I hope that is NOT your plan, the ducting alone will be a night mare and the additional drag is certainly not needed. The differential temperature that is possible with an air to liquid intercooler is so much higher which means lower intake temp which equals more horse power and you have no additional aero drag. The ducting for an efficient air to air intercooler is sized to work most efficiently at a certain speed and at any speed above or below that speed it can become pretty inefficient, a good air to liquid intercooler works at all speeds without any aero drag.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline robfrey

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2011, 09:54:37 AM »
Rex, No we will be using an air to very cold icewater style cooler. I think IB was just referring to the placement of mounting.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2011, 02:11:29 PM »
Interested Observer, sorry for the sarcastic remarks. Long day yesterday. I know you are just trying to help.
The intercooler design that I have chosen does have less frontal area than the 3000 and 4000hp units but keeps the air next to cold fins longer. Testing by Robert of Chisled Performance has shown this to be the superior design for long pulls like LSR vs the short pulls of drag racing. We had him build us a double 3K unit for the lakester that really worked well. The unit shown in the renderings is a double 2500hp unit. He has built these before with excellent results. The trick to making these units work well is to exchange the water very quickly.
This is my last post for the next couple months or maybe we will just see you guys on the salt. When I'm a postin, I'm not a buildin.
If you wondering, I won't be postin on anybody else's thread either. I don't feel right sharing my opinion yet until I have actually accomplished something notable.
Again,  I'll see you on the salt.
PS, for those who I have made friends with and want to stay up to date, send me an email and I will add your address to our newsletter.
Thanks all!
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Offline JoshH

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2011, 11:10:19 AM »
You should check these out.

http://www.camburg.com/products/fabrication/tube-clamps/

Guys, regarding these couplers. These are geared more towards less stressed members, the guys that developed them use them for mount stuff to their trucks not necessarily highly stressed applications. These have threads in one side of the coupler and a countersink for a socket head alan in the other side so the load path through the bolt is not ideal. If you needed something for a high load application I would suggest machining some similar couplers with no threads or coutersinks just a simple hole so when the parts are mated a couple AN bolts are used for fastening. If you do the design right a single coupler design can be used for both sides.

Rob – I suggested these because they’re better then the clevis style couplers you where thinking of. If you going to use such a coupler in the curved upper frame member the curve could permanently capture the removable member - clocking and quality notches of adjecent memebers is key.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 11:14:01 AM by JoshH »

Offline Interested Observer

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2011, 12:50:59 PM »
Rob,
I agree that the design, particularly the aft sections, is still in a somewhat primitive state.  That’s why I said the comments were probably premature.  The comments are just thoughts tossed out for your consideration.  Don’t feel that there is necessarily a need for you to respond, refute, or clarify unless you care to do so, or feel it would be helpful to the “audience”.

Good to hear the cockpit has been deemed functional.
The battery was sort of a nit pick anyway.
Do the “Winter Extremeliner” people have a website or information on the nature of their rearend?  If you are fabbing the axle housings, that would be an opportunity to make them strong enough on their own that other reinforcement may not be needed and allow installation of strain gauges to supply Blue’s wheel load information.

Intercooler - If you are already constrained to use the blocky, double depth configuration shown in the drawings, yes, you probably have it in an optimum location.  What I tried to describe is something with a different configuration of the heat exchanger and some plumbing advantages.  While the Chisled unit may be adequate, it is a fundamental truth in air/water heat exchanger design that it is more efficient for heat transfer for given volume of core to spread it out on frontal area and minimize the depth.  Look at the radiator in any car--it’s not that way just to keep the car short.   
You are correct that careful control of the water flow pattern can be important.
However, in this case, I guess it is water under the bridge.

See ya when you reappear..

Offline Kiwi Paul

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #161 on: February 08, 2011, 12:44:21 AM »
Rob--If you are still here---DeNunzio Fabrications makes another kind of Keyed Coupler that might be better. They build Unlimited Off Road trucks and such, and have a piece that looks plenty trick....

Offline robfrey

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #162 on: June 02, 2011, 10:11:01 AM »
Rob--If you are still here---DeNunzio Fabrications makes another kind of Keyed Coupler that might be better. They build Unlimited Off Road trucks and such, and have a piece that looks plenty trick....

Thanks Kiwi Paul! I will definitely check into them
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Offline robfrey

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #163 on: June 02, 2011, 10:18:22 AM »
I am also ready to buy rear tires (MT 9 x 30) and wheels for them. Any recommendations on vendors?

We've been getting data back from cfd. No red flags. Pretty much what we expected. Some of the little problems that we were expecting have turned into non-issues. Everything is GO! Targets very much achievable. Thanks to all that gave the great tech advise.
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Offline Freud

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Re: NACA 66 Special A/BGS
« Reply #164 on: June 02, 2011, 12:47:02 PM »
Marlo had his wheels made by Taylor and they filled the order to the letter.

FREUD
Since '63