Author Topic: Australian Belly Tank  (Read 3185996 times)

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Offline Jon

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3105 on: December 16, 2012, 12:24:02 AM »
Guessing shorter pushrods aren't an option?

Have NFI what the rocker mounts/ geometry are like.

jon
Underhouse Engineering
Luck = Opportunity + Preparation^3

Offline grumm441

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3106 on: December 16, 2012, 01:21:47 AM »
The more I look at it, the less hair I get
I'm looking at a dent in some of the pistons where the exhaust valve has been getting friendly with it and I'm feeling
that the fix may involve some "underhouse engineering" I don't think that it was these rockers that were part of the problem as the other rockers may have been a larger ratio
The problem with slotting the rockers or using shorter pushrods is that the underneath of the rocker runs into the screw in stud. of which there is not much left to machine off, and I have to leave some of it there to hold the guide plates down
G
Chief Motorcycle Steward Dry Lakes Racers Australia Inc
Spirit of Sunshine Bellytank Lakester
https://www.dlra.org.au/rulebook.htm

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3107 on: December 16, 2012, 01:36:14 AM »
A lesson I just learned is to make sure everything in the valve train is correct with respect to the high lift cam.  I made some errors there and the guides wore out real fast and the valves would not seat like they should have.  This little mistake is costing me a lot of money to fix and it almost certainly reduced my top seed at B'ville.

What I did was to find a shop that is capable of custom making valves, springs, and everything else I could possibly need.  Then I sent in the cyl head with the cams and valve gear and a description of what I do with the bike.  Then I said, fix what needs to be fixed, modify what needs to be changed to get rid of the problem, and send me the bill.  I also wanted 2mm larger intake valves.

The work estimate came back quick.  It would be a lot of work and parts and it would take some steps to rectify the problems that I did not know that I would need.  All proposed work made sense, so I gave the OK.

This valve train setup was something I should have done right the first time.  My problem was I did not know I was doing it wrong.  It pays to get help from an expert with this complicated stuff.  Kibblewhite Performance Machine in Pacifica, Calif is doing the work.  Their website has all sorts of info.

 

Offline Jon

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3108 on: December 16, 2012, 01:49:53 AM »
Hey..... Underhouse Engineering is my main (only) sponsor.

Can you spot mill the cast in pedestals on the head?
If so that will let you run shorter pushrods without having to thin the heads on the studs.

jon
Underhouse Engineering
Luck = Opportunity + Preparation^3

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3109 on: December 16, 2012, 01:56:34 AM »
you can all ways grind them down or slot the rockers---or both --posted by a simple mind with too much vino--that right vino---not ceverza---imagine that!!

Bill's gone to the dark side :cheers:

If I was any use to Grumm I'd help but my job is to break the motor, well it has been so far, not to build it.

I sit here and hope divine inspiration strikes him , and that a bale of money falls through the roof of my house, the former is more likely than the latter but we live in hope.
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

http://thespiritofsunshine.blogspot.com/

Current Australian E/GL record holder at 215.041mph

THE LUCKIEST MAN IN SLOW BUSINESS.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3110 on: December 16, 2012, 02:04:08 AM »
A lesson I just learned is to make sure everything in the valve train is correct with respect to the high lift cam.   . . . This valve train setup was something I should have done right the first time.  My problem was I did not know I was doing it wrong.  It pays to get help from an expert with this complicated stuff.  Kibblewhite Performance Machine in Pacifica, Calif is doing the work.  Their website has all sorts of info.


If you skip the talk of beer and refer to my last 5 months of posts on the Midget, I can only accentuate what Wobbly's talking about.

If you go with the longer valves, make sure your springs will close 'em up tight enough.

Math is your friend - it's accounting that sucks.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3111 on: December 16, 2012, 06:41:04 AM »
A photo or two of the problem areas would give us a better idea of the exact areas of interference and the type of valve train parts you're using. Most of us who have tried to use cams with extra large lumps have run into these problems in the past and can probably help with suggestions for solutions. As for valve to piston clearance, a trip to the mill with an appropriate fly cutter should ease the issue with very little problem.

Good luck! We want to see you guys running.  8-) 8-) :-D

Pete

Offline grumm441

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3112 on: December 16, 2012, 07:48:00 AM »
When I'm supposed to be working on some guys ducati tomorrow, I will be making the tool to deal with the piston clearance issue.
with the rockers............
They are yella terra (aus made) roller rockers. the plan is to turn most of the taper and the hex off the ARP screw in studs. leaving just enough material to hold down the pushrod guide plates.
Then I can use the shorter pushrods to get the rocker at such an angle that it doesn't come into contact with the posi loc or the stud.

well that's the plan any way.
G
Chief Motorcycle Steward Dry Lakes Racers Australia Inc
Spirit of Sunshine Bellytank Lakester
https://www.dlra.org.au/rulebook.htm

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3113 on: December 16, 2012, 08:14:00 AM »
Be careful turning down the stud and be sure you leave a nice radius. I had a sprint car engine once that we had problems breaking the rocker studs for a while. A decent girdle solved that problem.

Pete

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3114 on: December 16, 2012, 10:47:50 AM »
I was talking to Tim Cox yesterday and he recalled a conversation he had this time last year with Roger his racing partner. 

" You mean you are willing to spend all this time, trouble, money and EFFORT go back and run the SAME speeds we ran last year; lets get serious and put a blower on it!  Well they did, came back ran 30 MPH faster,  hurt some parts, got a hat, got a Peg Leg--( a one trip visit to the Mayor) on a second one---learned a TON on going fast on blown gas!! 

Come guys you have a bunch rooting for you  "Giter Done"  :cheers:
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3115 on: December 16, 2012, 03:07:47 PM »
  Come guys you have a bunch rooting for you  "Giter Done"  :cheers:

Sparky, and everyone else, thanks we know, you've been very patient with us....oh Bill, by the way:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rooting&defid=3979228
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

http://thespiritofsunshine.blogspot.com/

Current Australian E/GL record holder at 215.041mph

THE LUCKIEST MAN IN SLOW BUSINESS.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3116 on: December 16, 2012, 03:25:44 PM »
  Come guys you have a bunch rooting for you  "Giter Done"  :cheers:

Sparky, and everyone else, thanks we know, you've been very patient with us....oh Bill, by the way:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rooting&defid=3979228

Both apply.  :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3117 on: December 17, 2012, 06:27:35 AM »
Just came in from the shed at 10pm on a work night, plodding along assembling, cleaning, taking things apart again because I put them together in the wrong order...it's kind of like going back to where you grew up, you think you remember how things went but for some reason time has distorted them, it's starting to come together though. It's so much more apparent now that the car was really never "finished", and it probably won't ever really be so either. It's kind of hard to finish something when you don't know what it is. When the Reverend and I started this thing we thought it would be pretty cool to go 150mph and our idea of how long it would take and how much it would cost were probably as far off the mark as what we thought the car would be. In the end it is really just a great big go-kart, the possibilities were endless but in a twist of fate we decided that we make it fit inside the first tank we found, a week after we thought it would be a great idea to build one. That was nine years ago now, but it seems like a lifetime.

I've watched other builds lately and seen the ebb and flow of enthusiasm, money and know-how as the owner/builders go through the same agony of indecision and opportunity that we did. Like the half cut sports fan it's easy to be an expert from the sideline, but it's the guy there under the pump, in the spot-light who is the one who has to make the decision, make the call on how he'll play the shot and strangely it's every extra piece of advice that seems to make the decision harder. I got told that when our car was just a drawing by another tank builder who looked at me in bewilderment, when he told me that it was an important moment. Because when I heard that I knew this was something I was going to love.

As I was finishing up tonight I remembered that the car had been sitting on the truck ready to leave when we heard the meet was cancelled in 2010. We'd built a new motor after I totalled the 2009 motor at around 193mph, a speed it did twice but flatly refused to exceed. As the car sat on the truck we knew it had nearly 50% more power but we also knew it had a valve train issue that stopped the motor abruptly at 6450rpm and the gearing was the same, the car would accellerate more quickly than it had the year before but it wouldn't go any faster than it had in 2009, that's just plain physics.

We'd first run the car in October 2007 at Mangalore airfield, it had been a mad rush to get the car ready when the meet was convened with three weeks notice. The car had been driven ten feet along the driveway at this point. We ran around a hundered miles per hour. A few things were apparent...the gearshift was almost un-useable, the seat was probably dangerous, the brakes were purely decorative, the firewall would need to be sealed pproperly, the cab needed positive pressure and if we were ever going to drive the car again it had to be on track with a very very fine surface tolerance, I particularly was fairly badly beaten by the car getting airborne and landing heavily, no suspension and less than 2 inches of ground clearance make for a sensitive ride.Other than that we were thrilled to bits, then we had to change things.

Ever since then there has never really been a static point where we thought , "yep, that's it". Constant changes to the metalwork, more holes drilled here and there, rushed solutions to some apparent problem, change or perceived shortcoming...the initial frame paint job in 2007 had been brushed over two or three times , it was burned, dirty, greasy, it was a mess.

When the meet was cancelled in 2010 we already had the makings of a good motor and we knew how it could be a whole lot better, we also had the 10 bolt Torsen centred diff with a swathe of ratios that Sparky had marshalled for us, it was time to bite the bullet.I blew the car to bits and cut the peices we needed to make some big changes, there wasn't any going back, then I had it all blasted.

As I walked out of the shed tonight I thought to myself ..." man, I'm glad we didn't go that year". The car was compromised, it looked shitty and there were reasons that we should have stayed at home but we're too mad,and too proud. Now we have the ten bolt, the motor is being sorted and the car underneath the skin looks a whole lot more business like than it ever has before.Neater,better functioning, safer. That's not to say it is easy, financially it hurts as much or more than ever before, just like my life. I've made a lot of friends doing this yet sometimes I've looked at that car and thought, " am I done?"...tonight I left the shed and I was thinking "no dude, this is stronger than ever before". If anyone has been wondering....don't worry ya little heads.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 06:51:29 AM by Dr Goggles »
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

http://thespiritofsunshine.blogspot.com/

Current Australian E/GL record holder at 215.041mph

THE LUCKIEST MAN IN SLOW BUSINESS.

Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3118 on: December 17, 2012, 08:49:49 AM »
"If anyone has been wondering....don't worry ya little heads."
The thought never crossed my mind.  :wink:  :cheers: Wayno

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Australian Belly Tank
« Reply #3119 on: December 17, 2012, 08:57:34 AM »
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
on the ebb and flow

rooting----Somehow I knew what was coming :?
The Turbo has added a whole new dimiension on the $$$$$  just in plumbing and fittings alone--

but we are trying to double  :-o the HP after all!! Teddy R---one of our early Pres. spoke to the man in the ring!!!  one of the great values of this web site I think is several of us post warts and all just so folks can learn and see the trait that most of us have----- that "GITER DONE"!  We eventually pick up the wrench and hammer and start banging away--- again---I have had a HUGE lesson in just how much different it is to build one from scratch vs dramatiacially modifying something with 3 rebuilds.  I added a hundred from where it had been before and now I am trying to add a 200 to a car I had when I was 21-- a '58 Ford Custom 300 with a 361 FE I built---but it keeps me off the street and out of bars at night---musicians need not comply---lol :roll:
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 05:07:17 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!