Author Topic: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?  (Read 11182 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1522
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 10:02:48 PM »
Talked to an engineer at Oberg. Basically the guy said their reccomened oil filter has a 60 micron raiting.
He explained the rating was '60 absolute' and said the absolute raiting is not a perfect method (but the better of other methods) as its measured by the largest particle that will pass with no pressure. He also said with pressure and flow the actual filtration went >20m.

He also mentioned their 35 absolute micron fuel filter would separate water molecules from fuel. 
He also said that other filter manufactures use other methods of measuring filtering ability and are can be very deceptive from what the filter is in truth filtering.

I dont know how much of what he said was true.

Here is some interesting reading about filters:

http://www.lenntech.com/library/fine/absolute/absolute-nominal-filters.htm

~JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Dynoroom

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2192
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 10:05:28 PM »
Sometimes we hear what you want.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

saltfever

  • Guest
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 10:21:25 PM »
Mike, what micron rating do your paper filters have? My fuel paper filters give a 10 micron rating but I can't find a rating for the paper oil filters. What brand you prefer? 

JH, thanx for starting this thread.

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2626
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 12:17:23 AM »
I have been gone hunting for the last couple of weeks and haven't been able to get on the Landracing site but I do have a couple of comments regarding filters and screens.

First a comment regarding the post by Rick about using a 280 micron screen in place of the Oberg because the Oberg plugged up to fast. Rick did you ever think that the reason the Oberg may have plugged up faster was because it was filtering out more junk? If the Oberg filter is a true 60 micron rating as JHN is saying then it is obviously doing a better job, if you are measuring filter efficiency by how fast it plugs up then just don't use a filter and it will never plug up. Another point regarding shop cleanliness and engine assembly, no matter how much you clean parts you will have contamination in the engine which you already say you have because you plug the Oberg filter when you run the engine. I have seen some of the best engine builders us Pall series 7500 filters with a 3 micron rating to clean the engine when they first run it on the dyno, they also filter their parts washer fluid with a 1 or 3 micron filter continuously to make sure that they are not cleaning the engine parts with dirty solvent.

Next the question from Interested Bystander regarding speed improvement going from a 10 micron to a 3 micron filter. There is not speed improvement you are only increasing the cleanliness of the oil which should increase the engine life. There is a filtration theory that says small particle will, if not removed from the oil, will generate other particles thru its abrasion against other parts and if you do not remove these particles  they will generate more particles etc etc. So even if you start with an engine that was "perfectly clean" except for a single particle as the engine operates that single particle will generate other particles until the engine is contaminated enough to fail. Yes Rob your rod clearance is much greater than 3 microns but the rod does not run concentrically around the crank pin, on the loaded side the clearance may be only several oil molecules thick which is much less than 3 microns. Also what do you think the clearance is between the lifter and the cam? Probably much less than 3 microns.

Next a comment on filtering media. 1940 technology is the paper element. The difference between a 60 micron paper filter and a 10 micron paper filter is how much the manufacture compress the paper fibers together to get the holes between the paper fibers smaller. A typical paper fiber is around 15-20 microns in diameter the new  "bonded fiber" technology (started around 1970 by the Pall Corp) is about 2 to 3 microns so if you get the passage between the fibers on a new fiber type filter down to the same size as an equivalent paper filter you will have a lot more passages than on the paper filter which makes lower pressure drop for the same cross section of  filter element. Same goes for screen filters, a 10 micron screen filter will have 5 to 10 times the pressure drop per square inch of filter media compared to a fiber filter. Most of the "fiber technology" filters use a 2-3 micron glass fiber and they are processed with a bonding agent that glues the fibers together at each place that they cross each other, Pall is now using a special sintering process that bonds the fibers using heat which increases the filtration area by not having the bonding agent present.

JHN, most if what your Oberg guy told you was BS. The "absolute" method of filter rating went out 30 years ago, it is as old as the screen filter technology that the Oberg filter is using. Call him up and ask him what is his filters "Beta" rating is. This is the ONLY accepted filter rating method used  in the hydraulics industry today. Also his 35 micron filter will not separate water from oil, the water molecule is much smaller than an oil molecule, just think about what each molecule is made up from, water has a single hydrogen atom and two oxygen atoms which is much smaller than the huge oil molecule made up of long chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. One of the few things that a paper element will do well is remove water as the paper fiber adsorbs any "free" water, it will not remove any water molecules that are dissolved in the oil.

Hope all of this is of some help in getting around some of the information and mis information that is found in the filter "morass" you find today.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2626
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2010, 03:52:54 PM »
Opps! water is H20, two hydrogen atoms and only one oxygen atom.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline RICK

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 12:55:05 PM »
I'm a hunt and peck typist, so I try to keep my posts short and simple.


First a comment regarding the post by Rex about the post by Rick. It's most likely all my fault cause I don't explain in enough detail. I love the fact that the Oberg filtered well. The part that smirfed me off, was that it had such small, small limited capacity. And then to clean it, you have to disassemble the thing. And I was never able to locate it in a user friendly spot. So oil was always running on to the headers and into the frame, only to slowly drain out over the next couple of days.
 I found that the Moroso screen would catch the same junk that the Oberg would, except when I changed the spin-on filter, my oil spill was better contained.
Another point regarding shop cleanliness, I walked in to the "clean room" looking for my lost cell phone and there was a cigarette butt on the floor. Nobody there smokes,,, where did that thing come from?

  Bottom line was,,I was just trying to help Jonny Hotnuts find a spin on filter. I feel that the A/C PF35L has done a great job for me, synthetic 10 micron with little/none pressure drop, its afordable, and easy to find.
 And weather it's H2O or O2H,  It still adds up to three atoms.

Hope the hunting trip was enjoyable.

      RICK
It's not over, it's just harder.

Offline Dynoroom

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2192
Re: Oil filters.... on Marlo's 'liner
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2010, 11:44:02 PM »
Some thoughts about the Oberg filters Marlo might be using on his 'liner.

I do not use this type of filter to filter engine oil in my cars. That being said some reason they might be used on Marlo's car are:

Most fuel/nitro engines run 70 wt engine oil. Not sure but that might be part of the reason for a 60 micron filter.

Also note that many nitro engines run much larger bearing clearances than many other engines, mainly due to the thick engine oil.

It is also possible that they are running a "better" engine oil filter and using the Oberg as a "scavenge" filter to catch debris before it's returned to the oil tank. This is how many Nascar & other pro race teams do it.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline John Burk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 695
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 12:36:23 AM »
I have an Oberg between my suction output and tank to check for bearing problems . Maybe Marlo's is similar .

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2626
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 10:11:32 AM »
Placing a filter between the scavenger pump sections and the dry sump tank is the most effective place to put a filter, and I would suggest that this filter should not be 60 micron but probably 10 micron. This filter placement prevents contamination from the engine reaching the dry sump tank where it can be drawn into the engine high pressure oil pump and cause wear and damage, so the better the filter the better the protection for the oil pump. If you have a good filter, low micron rating and very efficient, in this position you could probably delete the hp filter from the hp pump, although you probably still need this filter because new oil is pretty dirty.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
    • My tech papers
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 11:29:13 AM »
Thanks, Rex.
A person who thinks a water molecule is .001" is certainly not an engineer, which suggests that Oberg is rather promiscuous with the term.

Offline johnneilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 11:42:39 AM »
I found this comparison on line a few years ago, it started me thinking when the motors we were racing were limited to a stock filter assy. Take a look, if nothing else, you may stop using the orange filters on daily drivers.

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

John
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2626
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2010, 08:59:39 AM »
John,
Thanks for posting the link to the filter comparison page. Many of the comments regarding the construction and quality of the filters was interesting. Several things should be noted, one is that almost all of the filters use paper as the element material, another is the description of the SAE J1858 test which is somewhat similar to the ISO testing for modern hydraulic system filters. Note that the filter efficiencies estimates provided are very low for every particle size up to 60 micron. When you have efficiencies this low the filters cannot reduce the amount of contaminate in a system as the particles that are missed are generating new contamination particles at a greater rate than the filter can remove. A good "Industrial" filter using glass media will be rated with an ISO "Beta" rating for different particle sizes, a filter that has a Beta 10 rating of 100 means that if 100 ten micron particles are flowed into the filter only one of them will not be contained in the filter. That filter is 99.975 % efficient, quite a bit better than the auto filters. Maybe this is to good for an automotive engine but if you have just spent $30,000 for your "bullet" maybe not.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline johnneilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Oil filters....I have options WTF should I do?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2010, 11:03:52 AM »
Rex,

You are correct about the efficiency of the filters and the media used.
This paper was written in the '90's. I wonder how much has changed?

The other key fact that most people miss is the bypass system. I noticed it mainly on our spec racer, the filters will plug about 3-400 miles into a change cycle. This was found logging data and looking for efficiency with different types of lubricants. I have switched over to exclusivly using Wix spin on filters.

One other detail about spin ons, the Wix site has ratings on flow and element micron sizing per filter spec.

After doing oil analysis testing on industrial machines, the best protection for race bullets is to change oil frequently.
After running a few 25 hour endurance events and inspecting the motors afterwards, go with synthetic.

John
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.