Author Topic: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)  (Read 8578 times)

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Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« on: September 05, 2010, 04:51:49 PM »
Got back home to Kansas City last night, had an uneventful drive back, which was a relief after the last week.  8-)

Before I start the "all about me" portion of the post, I'd like to give a huge thanks to all the folks who make this event happen and pull it off as smoothly as possible given the challenges that they face. The volunteers, organizers, sanctioning bodies, BLM, and every one else that comes out to the salt to put on an event that we can all enjoy.

 THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!!

Also a big thanks to Brian and Tucker Allen and Harry Townsend, the rest of Speed Team Doo. I'll let them tell their own stories of the week, but without the help and support of good friends this would never be possible. Thanks Guys and Gal.

To the very few folks that I saw who were grousing about little problems here and there, I'd just like to say keep an eye on the big picture and remember that this event is not just about you. It's about all of us, and sometimes an individual will have to give a little so that others can get a little. Usually giving a little returns a lot and results in a much better time for all.

The drama for this year started when my truck quit pulling and died on an exit ramp just before Limon CO, clogged catalytic converter. The fix was to drill holes in the inlet to the cat so the exhaust could get out. Had to stop a few times to drill more holes and enlarge ones that were already there. Committed a felony in Denver by modifying the exhaust, but what good story doesn't include a little crime. It's loud as hell now but it got me there and back.  :lol:



The bike was unfinished when I loaded it up. I planned to use the first couple of days in the pits to tie up lose ends, get it running, and put a few heat cycles on the engine. In my experience trying to get on the track as early in the meet as possible leads to long frustrating waits in registration and tech, as well as dealing with the inevitable cluster in prestage and staging while the volunteers get the hang of it again. Running later in the week is much easier on the mind and body. Once I got it ready to run I was able to walk right up to the registration window and take care of the paperwork, and then roll right into tech to get it inspected. No waiting in line and everyone was much more laid back without a backup to deal with. I was expecting a real close look over in tech, and got it. They provided several helpful suggestions and asked a few questions about the design, but nothing that kept them from passing the bike to run. The did request updates on how it handled and asked that I report back on whether I had problems keeping my feet on it in rough conditions since there is really nothing holding them in. I reported back after a test run through the crunchies that no problems were experienced and it handled well above about 5MPH.



When I arrived at the salt I was completely unsure if the bike would even be rideable. The only testing that I was able to do on the design was to coast the basic frame down the street in front of my house. It had never been ridden as a completed motorcycle. After getting it running I took a test ride down the access road and behind the pits with the body off, and to my great delight it rode quite well and was completely controllable. I did have to modify my shifter to get enough travel to engage the gears while riding. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the real world. After installing the body work and getting through tech I got in line for a real run. The first run I took it easy, just running through the gears and testing the handling, kept it right on a tire track from a prior run for a bit, then moved left and right on the course. The bike was rock solid stable at speed and went where I wanted it to go when I told it to. No surprises at all and it gave me complete confidence to open it up and go for it on the next pass. At this point I was feeling good and ready to rock.

Since so many have questioned how this design would handle in side winds, I'm very pleased to report that I had no problems at all. On one of my runs (I can't remember exactly which one) I had side winds gusting both ways to about 10MPH judging by the flags. I could feel the winds, but was able to lean into them and correct just like on a normal bike, with almost no deviation from my intended course at all. I was very pleased by this since I was unsure if the bike would even be controllable when I arrived. The wood body served it's purpose as a "proof of concept" and will be replaced with better construction for it's next outing.

In the past with this engine I have never been able to pull 4th gear. It would always lose RPM in 4th so I have had to wind it out in 3rd for my best speeds. This is the main reason for the new chassis and body work. My thinking is that if I can make it work I'll have less drag and possibly get 4th to work.

On my next pass I shifted into 4th at about 7500 RPM, and it held 4500 RPM through the traps for a speed of 72.***. Not dropping revs was a good sign, and I thought about installing a larger rear sprocket at this point. I realized that I hadn't wound it out in 3rd as high as I could though, so decided to make another pass with this gearing to see what would happen.

On the next run, I ran 3rd out to 8500 before upshifting. This gave me about 5500 in 4th, and it climbed and dropped over the course of the mile. This run was made on the International Short Course, starting at the 3. The timed mile was so badly wash boarded that I could barely see the tach due to my eyeballs rattling in my head. I was sure I had a good run, but when I got my time slip it said 72.*** again. The only explanation I can think of is that due to the wash board I was spinning the rear tire. I vowed not to be put on the International side again.

Back to the pits to re-think the situation. I decided to put the larger rear sprocket on and try it again. Up 2 teeth would hopefully let me pull 4th. Got onto the track, ran 3rd out to 8500 again and it was pulling strong. Shifted up and watched the tach. RPM started climbing and was reading 6500 and still climbing when I hit the 2 mile marker. Half way through the run the tack was reading 7000+ and the engine was sounding strong when it suddenly lost power and nosed over. I clutched it and coasted through the mile to get a time slip of 66.***. IF it had kept running on that run the numbers say it would have been mid to high 80's.  :oops:

I coasted it as far as possible and then started pushing back toward the pits. Our team trailer was at the starting line in support of Brian and Tucker at the time, so I needed to at least get the bike out of the way of other competitors. An angel appeared to offer to help push and a bottle of water. I didn't get her name, but if you're reading this you know who you are. THANK YOU, you were a real life saver. Ray the Rat appeared out of a blue box and we spoke for a bit. Real pleasure to meet him and I allayed any fears he may have had about insulting me or the bike by calling it a "china cabinet".  :-P I finally got the bike pushed back to the end of the pit area, and took the Kawasaki Brothers up on the offer of shade and a place to park until the trailer could get there. Thanks guys!!

Once the bike was back in the pits I tore into it to find out what went wrong. I was hoping for something stupid like low voltage or out of fuel. No such luck for me :roll: If you've been following our adventures you'll recall that this engine seems to have a real appetite for pistons. The trend continued this year.  :-( No spares in stock this year at all since I was confident that I had addressed the issues that were causing the problem. This makes piston #6. Looks like we're done for this year. Piston wiped out on both front and rear and rings stuck in the grooves.

I didn't come all this way to quit, and with nothing to lose decided to see if I could salvage something out of it. Besides, like I told Brian, "I feel another Bonneville miracle coming". I removed the piston and used a hack saw to cut the galled aluminum from over the rings and got them off. The bottom compression ring broke getting it off and the bottom oil ring was dinged up. Used the hack saw blade to open up the ring grooves so that the rings could float again, the mill bastard file was used to file the galling off the piston, and my Leatherman tool knife blade scraped the aluminum from the cylinder walls.



 Put it all back together, with the sharp corners knocked off the broken lower compression ring and left the lower oil ring out. It started on the second kick and once the assembly lube burned out of the cylinder it didn't smoke and sounded good. We may be back in business!

Swapped the rear sprocket for the smallest one I had, left the body off and put some masking tape with the numbers on it and rode it down to get back in line. The plan this time was to run it out in 3rd and wring it's neck, hoping it holds together. I'm running against my own 75MPH record, just trying to make it more respectable, LOL.



 It ran out strong through the gears and entered the traps running good. Ran all the way through with no problem and I was able to ride it back to impound. A trip to the trailer for the slip, 77.987 in the mile. Time to say a prayer and take a trip to the 5. After a quick run to the pits to make sure I had enough fuel for one more run I rode it out to the 5. After a very short wait I was flagged onto the track for my backup run. Winding it out and praying the entire way through the timed mile, it performed flawlessly, and kept running to get me back to impound without pushing again for tear down and certification. Another trip to the trailer netted a slip showing 80.301. Got it taken apart and certified without a problem, loaded the trailer and came home.

I think next year I'll bring along some extra pistons and other parts and a small forge. The forge will be the first thing I unload and fire up. Once it's hot I'll toss in the parts, some cash, cut myself and drip blood in it, a pinch of salt in my eyes to get some tears into it, and stir the mixture as an advance sacrifice to the Gods of Speed.  :|  Till then, Be Safe, Have Fun, Go Fast. See ya'll next year.



« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 05:12:24 PM by WhizzbangK.C. »
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline Bruin

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 05:28:13 PM »
I'm here to testify, Ed did indeed make a smokeless piston field repair with leatherman, file, and hacksaw. When Speed Team Doo says "we make doo" we ain't whistling Dixie! There is a whole 'nother story in his fuel line plumbing.
STD; Speed Team Doo
'82 Honda 500 APS-AF
'70 Triumph 250 MPS-PG
'71 Triumph 250 APS-PF
'70 Triumph 250 M-PG

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 05:57:22 PM »
Congratulations Ed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Its amazing what you can do in the middle of nowhere with very little and achieve amazing results!  I'm curious to know what you do for air movment over the engine.  I found out a long time ago that air cooled engines need air moving across them otherwise you get pistons like you got.  My Weslake has about as many fins as a small goldfish but I have two big scoops on each side of the body to keep the air moving.  I didn't notice any scoops on the body.  Just a thought.

It doesn't matter.  The main thing is you upped the record.  Again,  Congratulations!!

P.S.  Glad it went in a straight line.  Wouldn't want you coming after me!!
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline gearheadeh

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 06:04:51 PM »
 Man ....that is a great write up,  I liked the confidence in doing the what I call Shade tree Mechanics rebuild to set a record(naked) Sounds like it will really cook along with the body on it!
With this last part :

                        I think next year I'll bring along some extra pistons and other parts and a small forge. The forge will be the first thing I unload and fire up. Once it's hot I'll toss in the parts, some cash, cut myself and drip blood in it, a pinch of salt in my eyes to get some tears into it, and stir the mixture as an advance sacrifice to the Gods of Speed.    Till then, Be Safe, Have Fun, Go Fast. See ya'll next year.


 I was rolling on the floor holding in my guts! You are too damn funny. :-D
40 is the old age of Youth, 50 is the young age of the Senior years.

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 06:08:43 PM »
Congratulations Ed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Its amazing what you can do in the middle of nowhere with very little and achieve amazing results!  I'm curious to know what you do for air movment over the engine.  I found out a long time ago that air cooled engines need air moving across them otherwise you get pistons like you got.  My Weslake has about as many fins as a small goldfish but I have two big scoops on each side of the body to keep the air moving.  I didn't notice any scoops on the body.  Just a thought.

It doesn't matter.  The main thing is you upped the record.  Again,  Congratulations!!

P.S.  Glad it went in a straight line.  Wouldn't want you coming after me!!

For air flow across the engine I used an electric fan mounted inside the body. You can see it in this picture taken before I left, just in front of the engine.



I used the triangular hole behind my head for air inlet, along with a couple of screens on the side just behind me. My thinking is that the air flowing around the helmet makes a blast directly behind the rider's head, that you feel if you ride behind someone on the road.



The air inlets, fan, and low pressure area behind the bike at speed seem to be enough to keep it cool. I checked the engine after every run as soon as I could shut down and get my gloves off, and it never felt hotter than normal. The oil bag was never too hot to lay your hand on after a run, and nothing ever smelled hot after a run. The piston crown doesn't show signs of getting too hot either. I don't know if it's possible but I'm thinking that maybe the blast of air from the fan is actually too much cooling, and preventing the cylinder from expanding as much as the piston does under extended hard pull conditions??? I'll do some real testing to find out what's up with it.
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 06:20:53 PM »
I'm here to testify, Ed did indeed make a smokeless piston field repair with leatherman, file, and hacksaw. When Speed Team Doo says "we make doo" we ain't whistling Dixie! There is a whole 'nother story in his fuel line plumbing.

Oh yeah, the fuel fiasco, I forgot to include that part. Here it is now.

As stated earlier, I showed up with a completely untested machine. The engine was never even fired before loading out. Once we got the pits set up I commenced finishing up the bike. Got the fuel lines run and the wiring hooked up and energized the system for the first time. The fan came on, the fuel pump (necessary since I mounted the fuel tank low for CG reasons) ran, and the ignition sparked when I kicked it over. Then we noticed fuel dripping off the bottom. Closer inspection revealed fuel spraying out of the tickler. Being as I'm running an Amal 930 Concentric carb, we assumed that the fuel pump was overpowering the float needle, even with the regulator turned all the way down. I proceeded to replumb the fuel system with a return line to the tank that went just higher than the float bowl to limit pressure to the bowl. Even with this mod, when the pump was on, the fuel overflowed. Taking the bowl off we discovered that the tabs for the needle on the float were deformed, bent down and holding the needle cocked in the it's bore. Ignoring conventional wisdom I heated the tabs with my lighter to soften them and reformed them with my fingers. A little better but still not right. I heated them again and this time the caught fire and disappeared!. After a quick trip through the pits searching for someone with a spare float, to no avail, we cut out a replacement tab from a feeler gauge and epoxied it to the float. Next morning the epoxy had set and I attempted to adjust the tabs to work. It was close when the final adjustment broke the epoxy bond and I once again had a hand full of scrap! In desperation I made another trip through the pits, and happened upon a gentleman who had a 1969 BSA B25 with an Amal Concentric strapped down on his trailer. He had no "spare" parts but said he was done running for the week since the bike was making a strange noise and he didn't want to break anything worse. He was kind enough to allow me to remove the float from his carb on the spot! In my haste and desperation I didn't get a name, so if you're reading this, THANK YOU, you literally saved my week. Once the float was replaced the fuel leak stopped and the engine started and ran. Then I was ready to commence trying to break it again.  :lol:
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline Bruin

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 06:33:46 PM »
Ed, here is a close-up that might help as a visual aid in your tech explanations. (Note, this is a pre-pressure relief plumbing picture.)
STD; Speed Team Doo
'82 Honda 500 APS-AF
'70 Triumph 250 MPS-PG
'71 Triumph 250 APS-PF
'70 Triumph 250 M-PG

Offline 55chevr

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 06:35:07 PM »
Your team were good neighbors in the pits ... I used more of your tools then my own ... I really appreciate your help loaning me the 5 pound sledge hammer that I needed to adjust my chain guard ...


Joe

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 06:44:59 PM »
Ed, here is a close-up that might help as a visual aid in your tech explanations. (Note, this is a pre-pressure relief plumbing picture.)

Here is a pic after the plumbing mod, in case it helps anyone.

Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2010, 06:49:50 PM »
Your team were good neighbors in the pits ... I used more of your tools then my own ... I really appreciate your help loaning me the 5 pound sledge hammer that I needed to adjust my chain guard ...


Joe

It was our pleasure Joe. To me at least the best part of the event is meeting other gearheads and sharing the experience. I even enjoy the waits in prestage and staging since that's really the only time we all have to stand around and talk and get to know each other. If no one was bitching about the wait prestage would be a big happy party!!
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 09:54:53 PM »
Ed,  I have a similar set up to you in the fuel dept.  I use a small fuel pump to lift the gas to the carb.  I was a afraid of the pressure forcing open the needle.  I have one line up to the carb where it does a u turn to a T piece that allows the fuel to more or less gravity feed the carb.  The surplus then returns to the tank through the second line.  I've had it that way for two seasons and no problems.


By weslake at 2010-09-05
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 05:30:19 PM »
Ed,  I have a similar set up to you in the fuel dept.  I use a small fuel pump to lift the gas to the carb.  I was a afraid of the pressure forcing open the needle.  I have one line up to the carb where it does a u turn to a T piece that allows the fuel to more or less gravity feed the carb.  The surplus then returns to the tank through the second line.  I've had it that way for two seasons and no problems.


By weslake at 2010-09-05

Yep, functionally identical setup. Seems like the only really safe way to run a fuel pump to a MC carb without overpowering the float.

I just noticed your number. I assure you that I didn't pick mine based on it, LOL. Actually, the first year my number started out as 7417, which is my home address house number. I changed it to 7419 when I switched to fuel class that year because it was easy to change the 7 to a 9 with electrical tape.

I'll probably be asking you a lot of questions concerning methanol in the coming months. I think I've just about got all the power I can out of this engine running straight gasoline, and need to move up to a more potent fuel to achieve my goal of getting it over 100MPH.
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 02:50:54 PM »
I noticed your number and, I'll admit, I was curious.  But  I figured it was coincidence.  But those numbers seems to have worked pretty good!  My gas tank is an oil tank from a Manx Norton.  Feed and return lines.  Perfect for the application!  Methanol is pretty sttraight forward.  You just have to put enough of it into the cylinder and you'll be fine.  I have a old copy of an Amal tuning for methanol leaflet.  I'm at the beach right now and when I get back I'll e-mail it to you.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline Bruin

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 12:32:16 AM »
I'll be eavesdropping on the methenol discussion as well. I'm already running in the fuel class, (for the convience of it.) may as well use some form of hot juice to break through the plateu I seem to be approaching. Right now I have a 38mm Mikuni on my '82 XR 500.
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'70 Triumph 250 MPS-PG
'71 Triumph 250 APS-PF
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Offline Flyboy

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Re: STD 7419 Bub Speed Trials 2010 report. (The Flying Credenza)
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 01:00:09 AM »
Great writeup Whizz. Thanks for coming out--
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