tires

[joea]

..i guess i dont possess the correct mental capacity for this banter...

....a simple confirmation of what is and isnt legal (given specific tire choices and speeds) before arriving is all
that was asked...

[1212FBGS]

Yeah, ok, yes, yeah, yeah, ok, yes, ok, i know, ok, yes, BYE MOM.











fricken idiots










for a respected sanctioning body to turn their back on safety is irresponsible behavior..... a blanket statement that the competitor "knows" what is good for them is an accident waiting to happen.... Telling a rookie with a turbo Hayabusa that cant even change his own tire is like giving them a loaded gun..... Requiring a equipment standard brings a higher level of safety and respect to a sanctioning body.... without that your just a bunch of ...... Vee twin glad to see your still a coward and hiding behind a screen name...... why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences.... oh and maybe you can enlighten us on how you have handled experiences in dealing with situations as a director of a sanctioned body in the past

[VeeTwin]

fricken idiots

Now there's an intelligent argument. My guess is that everyone who disagrees with you  is a "fricken idiot"

for a respected sanctioning body to turn their back on safety is irresponsible behavior.....

There's a big difference between turning your back and applying a little common sense. Personally I don't want them dictating to me things that I know more about. Which tires work for me is something I know more about.

Can you imagine a sanctioning body dictating that everyone stop using the tires that they know work, and instead switch to unproven tires? A rule change like that could get someone hurt or killed. That's "irresponsible behavior", Kent.

Requiring a equipment standard brings a higher level of safety and respect to a sanctioning body....

You mean like the designated-for-racing SCTA rule? That brought a higher level of safety and respect? Seriously?

Personally I look at the way that whole thing was done, and the end result, and it comes across as a classic example of bad rules making. They made no effort to get any buy-in, they forced everyone running high speeds to be a guinea pig, and it appears they made things more dangerous. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure as hades didn't gain any respect for the people who did it. I'll stop short of calling them names, though. I know their intentions were good. But the road to Hades is lined and all that. I just hope their egos aren't so big that they refuse to make a change. Someone could get killed.

This whole thing really appears to be more of a SCTA vs. AMA thing. You and Joe are sitting there putting down AMA and trying to defend the change that SCTA made. Well, you can do that if you want, but to some us, the AMA approach makes a lot more sense.

Joe, you're a very accomplished and respected racer. Why in the world you think you're going to have trouble at the Bub meet convincing the tech folks that you know what you're doing with your tires, I don't know. That doesn't make sense. I think you're worrying about something that has zero chance of happening.

[sabat]

why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences....

You missed this part.

[nrhs sales]

Joe and Kent,
All I can say is wow! For you guys to be saying the things you are saying after all the blistered "racing" tires that occured at Speedweek is just beyond understanding.  Both of you are some of the most respected motorcycle racers in LSR yet this is how you represent yourselves? I have nothing else to say.

[joea]

...nrhs....:

-were you there..?...NO...we were..

-you speak of "all those blistered tires"....

DO YOU F'IN KNOW WHO's AND HOW MANY AND
UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS, AT WHAT SPEEDS, PSI
AND TIRE SPIN...?...

seriously....the last count i was privy to was 8...out of ALL fast runs
being monitored and inspected...

im going to take a deep breath, chillax and proceed abit..

..this internet thing is very touchy..

it would likely be best if we all met in person....i dont want to lose your friendship
or most any other...

but until then, hopefully some positive can be garnered by trying to stick
to as many facts as possible and hopefully alleviate folks spouting off
about things they hear about and have no or not much first hand knowledge
about, creating some hysteria that is likely not facilitating anything positive...

8 tires from the largest lsr meet in history is likely very much less than the numbers
tallied unrecognized/policed in years past...

folks who blistered/chunked zr dot spec tires in past, blistered and chunked zr race spec tires...

folks who have not blistered or chunked zr dot spec tires in past did not blister or chunk zr race spec tires....

at least one entrant blistered/chunked 3 different tires in a row....3 out of the six, and was witnessed
to come up into wheel spin in 2nd gear and maintained wheel spin for miles....

am i dissing (sp?) them..?...not really, they as we all do evolve and this data/feedback will likely benefit
them and the rest of us....

do i think race spec superior to dot spec, i dont have enough data/knowledge base  to say....

as said previously, no delaminations, no huge chunks missing as was more akin to many zr dot spec
failures, the race spec had very narrow band of blister/chunk in center .5 to 1 inch that didnt
extend into other tread transitions further out on tire as often happened with dot spec failures...

additionally, im personally not at all saying race spec preferred, just trying to provide more of a picture of results...to try to alleviate tangents and possible misinterpretations....

just looking at what is happening first hand, not from internet seat hundreds of miles away...

...i try to stay quiet...tires are sensitive issue to say the least....

..i look at the car parachute issues similarly....if someones chute doesnt deploy properly..scta tech
folks talk with them for their safety, if it repeatedly has issues in deployment that are dangerous, they
are asked to make changes and fix before returning.......they dont say.."the competitor knows more than
us about this, we defer to their knowledge and expertise..let them go...".....

..the ability to run on the salt at a sanctioned event is a priveledge...not a racers right...its the safety of the racer..spectators and the sport in general that is being facilitated....

[nrhs sales]

Joe,
That was a very well thought out answer.  As I said before I am giving my opinion and my opinion is that the new tire rule was made before they had all the facts. In my opinion (again) that is a very dangerous precedent to set especially with something that can be as dangerous as tires are concerned on a bike. If the race tires and the ZR tires are built on the same exact carcass (accoriding to the dunlop rep right?) then how does that make the "racing tire any safer, especially if they use a softer rubber compound? Like I said you are very respected and I am looking for well thought out answers not just saying "it's a racing tire so it must be better" as that is what the new rule seems to be based on.  Did anybody do head to head tests using the 2 different tires at high speeds on the same bike before this rule was implemented? Just trusting the tires companies opinions is nuts in my opinion. Think Formula 1 at Indy a few years ago!!  Or Nascar at the same track. Sometimes real testing need to be done not just what the computer says will work. Would you not agree?

As you said lets stick to the facts. Was this rule made based on facts or was it based on tire companies and insurance companies trying to protect their own a$$es should somebody be hurt? I get so infuriated when I see knee jerk reactions to an isolated problem.  I served 20 years in the Army and saw it happen way too many times!! You are the fastest sit on bike ever correct? Did you see any problems last year with your shaved and heat cycled ZR tires?  Or were you running something else.


I also agree that it is a privledge to run at these events but if a bad rule is made is it not everybodies right to say something? Seems like that is what you are doing with the Bubs rules. How is that different than what I am doing?

[desotoman]

Vee twin why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences....

Kent,

Great suggestion.

Tom G.

[fredvance]

Ok here is my take on what has happened. I made 7 runs at Speedweek, 4 runs over 200mph, 1 at 228, 1 crash at 210. my tire looks good enough to use again. I had to use a lot of right hand traction control, I believe the softer tire spun easier. On the zr dot tire that I have used for the last two years I was still learning and spun it a lot there is no sign of wear. If we were alllowed to go back to the street tires I would put it back on. I think the tire inspection is a very good idea. One competitor, with a turbo bike ruined his race tire on his first run. He was allowed to run a zr street tire as an experiment, he made many 200 plus runs and no further tire problems. I believe the harder street tires is what we should be allowed to run, and the inspections should continue. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

  Fred

[WildBro]

I think the tire inspection is a very good idea. One competitor, with a turbo bike ruined his race tire on his first run. He was allowed to run a zr street tire as an experiment, he made many 200 plus runs and no further tire problems. I believe the harder street tires is what we should be allowed to run, and the inspections should continue.
  Fred

Give them some time to discus speedweek and listen for SCTA conclusion

Bill

[nrhs sales]

Bill,
I concur.  This discussion really wasn't about speedweek but it seems to have turned into it.

[VeeTwin]

..i look at the car parachute issues similarly....if someones chute doesnt deploy properly..scta tech
folks talk with them for their safety, if it repeatedly has issues in deployment that are dangerous, they
are asked to make changes and fix before returning.......they dont say.."the competitor knows more than
us about this, we defer to their knowledge and expertise..let them go...".....

So you actually think SCTA knows better than you what does or doesn't work on your bike?

..the ability to run on the salt at a sanctioned event is a priveledge...not a racers right...its the safety of the racer..spectators and the sport in general that is being facilitated....

That's a straw man argument. Nobody is arguing that we shouldn't be safe. We're debating what's safest.

Do you believe SCTA's move made things safer?

Would you take one of these tires that chunked at 200 and go out and make a 272 pass on it? Or would you rather use the tire that you know worked for you once?

I'm sorry Joe but sometimes the racers do know better than the organizers what works and what doesn't. AMA has the courage to admit that.

But if you truly feel the need to have tire choice dictated to you, and you're gonna get all bent out of shape because AMA won't do it for you, then by all means, stay home and don't attend their meet. Get on the internet and bitch and whine and moan about them and be sure to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Some of us however appreciate that they're going to let us use what we know works.

[sabat]

Vee twin why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences....

Kent,

Great suggestion.

Tom G.

[John Noonan]

Joe thank you for your post, it is good to hear from a racer at the event that sees the big picture.

I was not at Bonneville however have spoken with racers and officials that were there regarding the tire situation that ensued.

I know that in the past years at Bonneville I have seen many racers blister tires from over spinning them on the salt building up heat and then the blistering starts, these racers have been known to simply return to the pits and install another rim/tire and then proceed to make further runs and motorcycle techs/officials never got a chance to see the damaged tires.

With the new policies the SCTA motorcycle officials have put in place the racers cannot make a pass, kill the tire and return to the pits without the SCTA motorcycle officials knowing about the situation.

This year I know of 6-8 tires that as Joe mentioned lost rubber in the center of the tire.

2-3 from one P-P bike, 2 from a turbo bike, one from a 1000 GSXR with a road race used throw-away tire (should have never been brought to the salt), heard a turbo 1000 started to blister one however kept the tread on...

Unless a racer over-spun his/her tire and then left the SCTA officials and motorcycle tire specialist were able to see all of the racers and take data from them regarding, HP, fuel management/traction control, type of tire/slick/compound etc.

The information is more than has ever been collected at an SCTA event and will go along way to making it safer for the racers, I have seen tires loose all of the rubber from over-spinning and yet still maintain air pressure however it seems that these race only tires are only losing the center section where the heat is being applied and none of the racers were even aware of the blistering until after the runs were over.

I am spending along time writing this in between company emails and see that Joe has already mentioned some things I either was going to or did mention, one thing that should be noted, the bike that lost the most tires was not a Turbo or Nitrous bike, it never hit 200mph or above yet due to lack of proper throttle control/modulation or traction control the rider as Joe mentioned spun the tire  for miles and even after blistering the slick and race tires was able to keep the bike upright as no air loss occurred.

I was not aware that a racer was able to install a non conforming tire after hurting a race tire, thank you for that information, it would be interesting to see the tires in person and compare them to what I have seen in the past...oh wait I am sure they are in the SCTA trailer and can be seen at El Mirage..

It was great feedback from Fred, Jamie, Racergeo ...lets continue to learn from this and make it safer as we go.

I don't feel that Bubs is going to allow riders to run 200+ on ZR tires however I would get that in writing before I trailered out there and found that I needed correct tires.

Has anyone got it in writing they are reversing the tire rules?  I have not heard that however my sources are just Tom and Van, I am sure there are more people on the internet that have better information/experience regarding this issue.

Be safe everyone...even you VeeTwin 


John

[nrhs sales]

John,
Bubs has never changed the tire rule so how could they reverse it?  They have only provided new guideance this year but in reality nothing in the tire rules has changed?

I agree with what you are saying about the SCTA checking tires after the runs. My question is why didn't they do this last year to see if the old rules were working or not?  Seems like before you make a huge rule change you would want to gather lots of data to support your decisison would you not?