Results?

[Cajun Kid]

Guys, maybe I have read to much into your replies, but to me they seem a bit demeaning and critical to and of  the LTA,,, "IF SO"

Then just give LTA a chance, it is a NEW deal and has only just recently completed it's second event.  I am sure they will work the bugs out. Using the ECTA rules was only natural and reprinting the book was a temporary fix for the time being. I am sure they will have there own book in the future which list LTA's records and specifics  etc... the actual safety rules and class rules should be the same.

I would expect that the LTA will use the same rules as ECTA (which in "most" cases are like SCTA safety rules) main differences are class and procedures, as  ECTA allows running up in engine class and has a few differant classes like circle track etc.

Let's all try to SUPPORT each racing venue this West vs East who's better than who is not good.. we all need to pull for each other and continue to expand and promote this hobby we all love.

We all know Bonneville/SCTA is the Speed Capital of the World and the LSR Mecca, but allow these new venues like the LTA to get it right.. rather than poke fun, lend a hand, or at least provide words of encouragement. Your many years of experience should be used to help, not to criticise or demean the efforts to get a new venue up and running.

Thank you very much.

Charles  (just a guy who likes to race and have fun .. don't you all too ?)

[RidgeRunner]

Big +1.  Couldn't have worded it any better myself.

                     Ed

[dw230]

I am a supporter of new venues. My post was not edited before I posted it. Should have read:

"At Speedweek I was given a LTA rulebook by an irate ECTA racer. Looking at the book I noticed that the course was listed as one mile in length and contained the contact info for the ECTA officials and Maxon records, etc."

My point is, I don't care if they allow a GT 40 to run as a Gas Coupe. The classes don't compare because of course length. I feel Loring should have been set up as a one mile, then you could compare performances. Just my opinion. I understand the concept of running up class to generate income for the event and as long as everyone is satisfied with the lack of record certification procedures I am good with that.

Good luck with any new event getting established, they are needed to maintain interest in the sport. I just don't get excited by all the claims.

DW

[LittleLiner]

Guys, maybe I have read to much into your replies, but to me they seem a bit demeaning and critical to and of the LTA,,, . . . . .

Hi Charles,    Yes, I think you may be reading to much into our posts, at least in my case.  That said, if you feel that we are being overly critical then (at least in my case) that means I did a bad job of wording my posts and for that I apologize.  

No criticism of LTA was intended.  What I was trying to do was to point out that some errors were made with a few of the classifications of a few of the cars and it might be a good idea to correct them before they become written in stone for all times.  

Fact is , my hat is off to the folks that were able to conceive and implement the LTA events.  I know I couldn't accomplish such a feat.  I wish I could have been there.  Sounds like it was a great event.

To make the next LTA event even better there are bound to be areas that can be tweaked and improved on.  One area is the classification of cars.  It appears that relying on the entrants to correctly class their entries without a review by someone in impound can lead to a few cases of the wrong car in the wrong class.  With so many open records that means that a wrong car (not 100% in accord with the rules) ends up being awarded a record.  This is not fair to those that will attend future events and run in those classes.

Example - your Stude is a Classic category unblown car.  How would you feel if some one entered a late model Firebird with a blown engine incorrectly entered in E/CGALT and set a record over 200 mph?  If that had happened I am sure you would have pointed out the error and it would have been corrected.  But, what if you weren't there and no one protested?   You show up next year and have this huge record to deal with.   Not good.

The other downside to having a loose impound is that it naturally casts a shadow over the authenticity of ALL the records that were set.  That might not be fair but it is human nature to react that way.  

I am not advocating someone writing a big check and flying in DW and few of his trusted SCTA impound buddies to police the event.  But it would be good to at least have someone that has taken the time to know the rules and is able to point out the obvious  - like a Sportscar ruining in Gas Coupe, or a Blown Car running in an unblown Super Street class or a Street Roadster without the correct body parts. That improvement will add to the well earned prestige of the LTA.

As DW already points out, in the rush to get the Loring venue up and running there are apparently some ECTA specific words that need to be edited.  And I realize that the running up in class deal is allowed.  But I am not talking about running up in class.  There were examples of runing in the wrong class.  That is something that ECTA does not allow and shouldn't be something that LTA knowing allows either.

So I guess my point is 1) good job LTA. but 2) there are a few minor things that need alittle more attention and I am sure you will get better and better . . . .

[Cajun Kid]

Little Liner and DW,

I must say, very well worded posts and you do not owe anyone an apology. (especially me, as I am a nobody in this sport)...

I do agree that a few mistakes did happen, and I agree that running in the wrong class and setting a record should not be allowed.  I was only trying to point out that it "seemed to me" to be more about casting stones rather than offering experienced and rationale observations followed by constructive solutions and support.

I have run all volunteer start up venues before and I know how thankless and difficult it is to do, and I may be overly sensitive for our racing brothers at the LTA.  I try to lend my support and encouragement where ever I go, and I for one think the LTA has came a long way in a short time, and yes paperwork and procedural mistakes did happen and I hope they are corrected.  even more so I hope each event gets better and those areas of concern are resolved.

I myself look forward to the next LTA event, even though it is a 22 hour drive each way for me to get there to race,  I will step up and volunteer some of my race time to take a shift in car impound if there is not enough people signed up to help.
 
Or I can help in tech and while in tech maybe a step could be added to check that the car is entered / classed correctly ? I know that may not be the way tech works, but if it is classed correctly in tech, then unless a change  is made it should be OK in impound. ?

Just My thoughts.

Charles

[RidgeRunner]

     When I first heard about the Loring possibilities I also thought a 1 mile "standard" would make the most sense all around.  Was told "wait until you see this place".   Having heard a pitch line or two before, Ya, Ya,............  After an initial look see cruise down the course on arrival late Fri in '09 I realized how wrong I had been.  To not use the available extra 1/2 mile would be like having a barroom with no beer available, a terrible and bordering on criminal waste of space!  Maybe didn't quite match the first feelings I got on my first visit to the Salt but it sure ranked a darn close second.

     Perfect meet no, glitches yes, but considering everything some pretty darn impressive results after only 2 meets.  Between the organizers, volunteers, racers, and people up in the County it's only going to improve.  The "LSR family" is equal to that of Maxton and the Salt already.  Haven't been to any other LSR venues yet so can't pass judgement of any kind on those yet.

     Conflicting schedule for me this past meet, couldn't be in 2 places at once and made a tough choice to pass on Loring but looking forward to many more safaries "up in the county" [as well as Maxton and back to the Salt when I can].

     Admittedly a bit biased, it's only a 10 hr tow.

     Just try to call's 'em as I see's 'em, no more, no less, without pots to stir or axes to grind.

                                           Ed

[Stan Back]

Charles --

" I agree that running in the wrong class and setting a record should not be allowed." 

Like running in C class with an E motor?


"Or I can help in tech and while in tech maybe a step could be added to check that the car is  . . . classed correctly?"

I believe you mean that the vehicle is in the right category, not class.


I seem to remember the clamor for getting "record" certificates.  Perhaps with no scrutiny and I guess any "Impound" certification, a "Performance Certificate" would be more appropriate.  I saw veteran entries running in the wrong category -- and they should know better.  The honor system didn't seem to work.  And if one establishes a "record" that way, it makes it unfair for those that follow.

Don't get me wrong -- it looked like a blast to run there and get timed.  And it's a hell of a lot closer that Bonneville for many competitors.  And in many ways, safer than running on the dirt.  But how many records can one afford?  Pay the fee and get a different one each run?  How many is enough?

Stan Back
(And standing back waiting for this blast.)

[Cajun Kid]

Stan Back,

I am sure you expect me to blast back a nice barrage, however I see the points you are trying to make in your last post.

I also know your example of running for a record in C with an E motor was aimed directly at me.  So let me "come back" at Mr Stan Back this way.

1. In both ECTA and LTA  the "written rules"  DO allow for running up in Motor Class.
2. And since the Rules ALLOW that, any entrant (me included) may "within the rules" decide to enter a smaller motor in a upper motor class.
3. You may disagree with those rules, however you may not criticise a racer who follows the rules, so TREAD lightly my friend when you "come back" at someone who is within the rules.

My feelings about the "current rules" allowing running up in motor class.

1. It is the current rule,,, so it is OK by me.
2. The smaller motor is handicapped by displacement,so what is the big deal?  it creates more revenue for the clubs and allows the racer a chance to run for more records.
3. Who does this hurt?  Let's use me as an example.  I hold  E/CGALT records at both ECTA and LTA  My car is a legit E/CGALT .. so if a legit  F/CGALT car decides to run on my E/CGALT record and beats me, then under the rules they are now the new record holder. Congratulations to them...I am OK with it, but you can bet I will be back at it to try to get the record again by going faster and not by whining about the rules.

Now on the other hand if a BLOWN car enters an UN BLOWN class (should never happen, but I understand it has) and gets a record ... that is clearly wrong and against any rules and that record if granted would then be in error of the rules and should be reversed.

See how clear ?

Charles

[tedgram]

Stan Back,

I am sure you expect me to blast back a nice barrage, however I see the points you are trying to make in your last post.

I also know your example of running for a record in C with an E motor was aimed directly at me.  So let me "come back" at Mr Stan Back this way.

1. In both ECTA and LTA  the "written rules"  DO allow for running up in Motor Class.
2. And since the Rules ALLOW that, any entrant (me included) may "within the rules" decide to enter a smaller motor in a upper motor class.
3. You may disagree with those rules, however you may not criticise a racer who follows the rules, so TREAD lightly my friend when you "come back" at someone who is within the rules.

My feelings about the "current rules" allowing running up in motor class.

1. It is the current rule,,, so it is OK by me.
2. The smaller motor is handicapped by displacement,so what is the big deal?  it creates more revenue for the clubs and allows the racer a chance to run for more records.
3. Who does this hurt?  Let's use me as an example.  I hold  E/CGALT records at both ECTA and LTA  My car is a legit E/CGALT .. so if a legit  F/CGALT car decides to run on my E/CGALT record and beats me, then under the rules they are now the new record holder. Congratulations to them...I am OK with it, but you can bet I will be back at it to try to get the record again by going faster and not by whining about the rules.

Now on the other hand if a BLOWN car enters an UN BLOWN class (should never happen, but I understand it has) and gets a record ... that is clearly wrong and against any rules and that record if granted would then be in error of the rules and should be reversed.

See how clear ?

Charles

  Amen Charles  

[Stan Back]

Does anyone at Loring check to see if it's an E (or F, D, AA) motor?  Examples of vehicles running out of category when they should know better leads one to believe they could run out of lowest engine class, too.

Here's my vehicle, here's my entry fee, where's my "record"?

That's why Performance Certificates might better describe the action.

[55chevr]

Racers run up in engine class all the time and it is within the ECTA rules. 

[bvillercr]

Racers run up in engine class all the time and it is within the ECTA rules. 

I'm pretty sure that the SCTA used to do the same.

[Stan Back]

But we're talking Loring here.  Supposedly using the ECTA rules.

So I'd guess that somewhere in the ECTA rules they check displacement.  So you gotta E motor, and set an E motor ECTA record.  You get checked and car is somehow certifed to be what it is and you can run up in class from there -- right?

But we've seen that at Loring, on the honor system, there were entries that ran in the wrong CATEGORY and could have run in the wrong displacement CLASS as well.  When you can see from a hundred feet that a car is classed wrong, how can you tell its displacement even when standing closer?

Pick a class and category, get a "record" with no, or minimal, scrutinization.

I'd bet that most of the records in the ECTA where cars are running up are set in "holes" in the Record Book.  Nothing against the rules there.  But aren't they scrutinized at the base record?  And it does have more to do with establishing a record, rather than breaking one. 

But in the case that you set a "record" with no scrutinization, it may make it hard for a car to follow later to break the record with a rule-abiding car. 

So why not get a Speed Certification -- a real, certified statement that Car #12345 went 215.234 on this date and time.  Because we've seen what ran as Gas Coupes, Street Roadsters and more -- and the honor system don't work for everybody.

Stan Back

[fredvance]

Stan, ECTA and Loring does not measure motors!!

[sabat]

As Keith Turk says at every driver's meeting; "The ECTA operates on the honor system. If you want to get a record in a C class with an A engine, go for it, but you're the one who has to live with it."