Author Topic: Clarification  (Read 4748 times)

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Blue

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Clarification
« on: July 29, 2010, 12:19:46 PM »
I was called on a mis-statement privately, so I need to publicly apologize here.  I called the 7070 accident a "blowover" when it was not.  I do believe that the CG was too far aft on a long nose vehicle and that this is fudamentally unstable.  Jack doesn't agree; OK, we disagree.  In addition, some of the responders to the previous thread believe that I am advocating some kind of rule outlawing some cars.  To be absolutely clear: I do not advocate outlawing anything.  I DO believe that aerodynamic instability is as dangerous as negative castor or rear wheel steering.  Defining aero instability in a simple and cheap manner for LSR is hard, and I would never advocate applying it as a rule unless it was simple and cheap; i.e. on the level of a safety inspector measuring castor angle.

I admire Jack's designs in many ways, mostly for the number of records he has with small displacement.  This may not have been clear when I posted my absolute disagreement with flat bottoms on streamliners for both drag and departure criteria.  I respect Jack's opinion on this, I do not agree with it.

I am glad that the previous topic spurred a lot of response and some incredibly detailed driver and builder descriptions.  I intended the topic to only address streamliners, yet more than one roadster driver posted some really good stuff.  Everybody learned more about the dynamics of handling, including me.

As to my own qualifications, I raced superbikes for 4 years, built and raced an enduro cart (125cc shifter), re-engined a hydroplane and never made it class legal (oops!), hopped up and stripped out an RX-7 and learned all about going backwards when violating the limits of trailing arm/solid axle handling (zero steering effect at 140 due to nose lift, and am currently working on a wide variety of aircraft including 7 jets 4 of which should be in the races this September.  I have made every aircraft I have ever modified go faster and stall slower and have yet to meet another aerodynamicist that can claim that.

Some here think that this doesn't qualify me to comment on LSR.  OK, ignore me.  I've grown a thicker skin over the last few years, and I really don't think that anyone should take anything I say as the absolute be-all end-all on a subject.  I do think that if an expert in a given field (and mine is aerodynamics) says something that doesn't agree with what you've heard elsewhere, you need to go find someone equally qualified in that field.  I have a large amount of respect for everyone in LSR because you guys are constantly changing things.  And if you get out into some of the other motorsports (especially air racing) you will find a parochial attitude of stasis that will blow your mind.

Sorry I didn't get back on this earlier, 60 hour weeks in a 95 degree shop do that to you.  I may not have time before Speed Week to post anything else.  I will be there, I just got offered a room and a friend of mine and I are coming.  I'll have my armor on, so anyone who wants to shoot arrows can do it then! :cheers:

Offline Glen

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2010, 12:25:28 PM »
Blue, looking forward to meeting and talking to you. I am in the timing trailer and will be at salt talks on Sunday. Will also be around the inspection area once we are set up and have the systems checked out.
 :cheers:
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline jl222

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 01:01:30 PM »
Blue, looking forward to meeting and talking to you. I am in the timing trailer and will be at salt talks on Sunday. Will also be around the inspection area once we are set up and have the systems checked out.
 :cheers:

  Don't believe everything you here. I'm still waiting to hear who his ''drivers'' are and what cars he has designed.
  Blue says he's not advocating outlawing any vehicles but if SCTA adopts his proof of aero stability that would be the result.
  Don't forget what Porkpie says..... ask 10 aerodynamist and you get 10 different  answers :roll:

  I for one am not so gullible as to believe Blue is going to be so busy he can't post....B+S!!!

                JL222

  Glen ask blue about his drivers and cars, he's not going to answer that here :evil:




                             JL222
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 01:05:15 PM by jl222 »

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 01:35:06 PM »
John, you are already testing Eric's (Blue) skin thickness!! I, for one, looking forward to meeting Eric as my meger E mail discussions with him have been very interesting. We may some time in the future get to see the results of Eric's thinking as I am designing my small lakester around his thinking. I only need to get some of my wife's list of "honey dues" beaten down so I can work on the lakester in ernest! And I thought I would have lots of time when I retired!!!

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline jl222

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 01:56:02 PM »
John, you are already testing Eric's (Blue) skin thickness!! I, for one, looking forward to meeting Eric as my meger E mail discussions with him have been very interesting. We may some time in the future get to see the results of Eric's thinking as I am designing my small lakester around his thinking. I only need to get some of my wife's list of "honey dues" beaten down so I can work on the lakester in ernest! And I thought I would have lots of time when I retired!!!

Rex

  And he has tested mine.

 jl222

Offline Gu11ett

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 11:58:55 PM »
I find it interesting how much discussion has been generated by Cliff's accident in 7070. There seems to be a lot of "experts" that know more about the cause and effect issues of his accident than the family does. I do not agree with this, but I do not have to like it either. The accident also has been the catalyst of at least one rule change. I am sure "it is for the betterment of the sport". I feel Jack builds good vehicles and strives to improve them any way he can.
Dale

Offline nebulous

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 12:15:38 AM »
Blue
My designs are wrong, but they work! Yours are correct, but don't exist! "Nebulous Theorem"
Jack Costella   
"Records are set by effort, not by the stroke of a pen!"

Offline nebulous

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 03:48:34 AM »
Blue
How can you say negative caster is bad?
How can you say rear steering is bad?
How can you say flat bottoms are bad?
Could you guarantee a crash proof design?
Does sarcasm have any value?
Is there a different color?
How can I better my designs? (no starting over)
Is Pamala Anderson a good design?
Respectfully Jack
P.S.Sorry I can't respond at your technical level. I have to be smarty pants!
Jack Costella   
"Records are set by effort, not by the stroke of a pen!"

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 12:10:18 PM »
Jack,

in my business we say

"if you know nothing, start to talk technical...".... :|......just to impress the people in the meeting room
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline bak189

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2010, 12:55:52 PM »
OK, Blue.....I will get out of the barrel.....it is your turn now.....hang in there.........
Question authority.....always

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 01:09:48 PM »
While we're on the subject of aerodynamics, I've always understood that aircraft in ground effects act considerably different than when they're operating in their intended medium. Is it not possible that vehicles that operate only in ground effects operate under a considerably different set of aerodynamic laws than those designed to fly? Just another thing to think carefully about.

Pete

Offline Oldanontheway

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2010, 02:10:07 PM »
Finally!!! I was taught from a very early age that actions are stronger than words.

A nod,
a bow,
and a tip of the lid
to the person
who coulda
and shoulda
and did.

old...
Political correctness is a spineless character flaw that emboldens the enemies of freedom, tolerance and peace.

This ain't your mothers cookie cutter motor sport like NASCAR or NHRA.. +10

Offline jl222

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2010, 12:24:47 AM »
Finally!!! I was taught from a very early age that actions are stronger than words.

A nod,
a bow,
and a tip of the lid
to the person
who coulda
and shoulda
and did.

old...

   :cheers:

    JL222

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2010, 11:51:45 PM »
Neb.....Which of Pamala's designs are you refering too.....as I recall, there are more than one. :evil:
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Clarification
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2010, 11:58:33 PM »
JD  lol  :cheers:
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

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