Author Topic: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build  (Read 1026885 times)

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Offline Roseville Carl

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2175 on: November 25, 2013, 12:55:13 PM »
Ok Buddy you get lost out there in cyberspace? Lookin for a Flatcad update........ :?
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2176 on: November 25, 2013, 07:33:21 PM »
I believe some motorcycles had aluminum head gaskets.

Is here a reason that copper is used, instead  of aluminum? Don has the capability to make aluminum head gaskets.

It seems to me that if a soft aluminum were to be used, it would work very well with our o-ring/receiver groove setup.

I'm thinking of a soft, annealed aluminum:



   
6061-O Soft Annealed Aluminum Alloys - Sheet
   

   Sheet

larger image      This is the most versatile of the heat treatable aluminum alloys. It has most of the good qualities of aluminum, and it offers a wide range of mechanical properties and corrosion resistance. It can be fabricated by many of the commonly used techniques.

In the annealed condition it has good formability. In the T4 condition fairly severe forming operations may be accomplished. The T6 properties may be obtained by artificial aging.

It is welded by all methods and can be furnace brazed. It is available in the clad form ("Alclad") with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum to improve both appearance and corrosion resistance.

Specifications: QQ-A-250/11, AMS 4025

Color Marking (Rod and Bar): Ends painted Blue

What if we quit trying to get the gasket to crush into the receiver groove? We enlarge the gasket cylinder opening, until it is just to the outer edge of the receiver groove, and have the o-ring go directly into the groove. We could use copper wire, and that would become our 'fire ring'.
 
The only remaing issue at that point is sealing water. We could used acid etched mild steel, aluminum, or copper, and seal with spray on Hylomar.
 
What do you guys think?

Flattie,

Sorry to be MIA, running a serious development project AND working for the red queen . . . . . .

Gaskets can be made of anything; ie: steel, copper, aluminum, cork, sewing thread, shirt cardboard, etc.   BUT, HEAD gaskets, by their very nature, need to fulfill a wide variety of sealing, especially when water & oil passages are combined with the task of sealing combustion.   The gasket material of choice needs to be selected primarily for the ability to contain combustion heat & pressures within a flexural zone, with the clamp load applied by threaded fasteners.   Distortions can (in your case, surely) occur in the castings, as the clamp load is applied.    How significant the distortions are, will influence the amount of stiffness and/or conformability required of the gasket material, for reliable service.   (ie, solid annealed copper Vs. aluminum Vs. MLS embossed steel, etc.)   Since oil and water passage sealing can be selectively "band-aided" by various sealants & methodologies, I suggest you do the following:

Buy a roll of white butcher's paper and a roll or several sheets of carbon paper.   Make two paper patterns of your head gasket(s), 2 per side, and 1 pattern of the head gasket from the carbon paper. Lay the butcher paper on the block, lay a single layer of carbon paper (no overlaps!!) on the paper, and cover with another layer of butcher paper.    Torque the fasteners carefully to your spec, DO NOT OVER TORQUE!!   Do this for both heads.    The carbon imprint left on the paper will give you a good idea of how stiff/flexible your block to head area is, with a clamp load applied.   This little exercise can also be done with a gasket in place.    The cost to do this is virtually nothing, except for your time, and I guarantee you will learn quite a bit, OR scare yourself!!   Low tech, but very effective . . . . .

RELATIVE clamp load can be altered by changing the torque, size of the fastener, etc.    Fastener torque, sealants, sewing thread, O-rings, etc, all change and/or concentrate the clamp load.   Once you have an idea of how well you can concentrate the clamp load, you can make an intelligent choice of gasket material.   Even clamp loads will allow you to use a conformable material such as MLS steel or aluminum.    Uneven clamp loads will need a stronger (stiffer) gasket such as copper.

My choice, if it were up to me: Since your engine has a blower, and the resultant high combustion pressures & temperatures, I would use solid annealed copper gasket with a hardened steel o-ring in the block and a receiver groove in the head.     I would work out the dimensions for the O-rings & receiver groove based on the carbon paper testing.   The more evenly you can distribute the clamp load around the combustion chamber opening, the better ANY gasket will seal.

As others have pointed out the best head gasket for blower engines is: NO HEAD GASKET!! Ala Offy or Ferrari Lampredi.

If I were you though, I would just be glad I had more than 3 head bolts per cylinder, ala your BMC buddy Milwaukee Midget!  :-D
 :cheers:
Fordboy

After thought:  You could also "drydeck" the water and oil passages for rubber/neoprene/Buna-N O-rings.   O-rings don't need much compression for effective "static" sealing.   Oil passages would need a compound compatible with hot oil . . . . . .
F/B
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 07:41:49 PM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

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Offline Rick Byrnes

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2177 on: November 25, 2013, 08:58:47 PM »
Listen to that (ford) boy.  He sounds like the gasket engineer I used to be.
The carbon paper will show you the way.
Load distribution can cause all kinds of concerns in a boosted engine.
All that caused me to use gas filled "O" rings on the turbo motor. and like F/B said elastomer "O" rings at fluid and drainback passages.  All the machining to do this is worth it..
Rick

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2178 on: November 26, 2013, 11:45:47 AM »
Slightly more $$ but this will give you more info than carbon paper: http://www.pressuremetrics.com/catalog/index.php

Look at bolted contact, pressure films, samples. Maybe they will sponsor you some samples!

Buddy, be sure to share your results!  :-o :-o :-o
All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline Richard 2

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2179 on: November 26, 2013, 10:33:35 PM »
Buddy how many times do you re-tork the heads before you run WOT.
For what its worth.
We use copper gaskets with steel O-rings. I have to re-tork at least 4 times before the shrinking and stretching stop. Even then I get movement spots on the head gasket. (+-) 40lb of boost, Aluminum head and block.
Richard 2
219.648 mph F/BFMR 2010 Record
4 cylinder Esslinger
Could of had a V8

Offline tauruck

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2180 on: November 26, 2013, 11:30:08 PM »
Fordboy, Thanks for that. It should help Buddy but it sure helped me. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Offline fordboy628

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2181 on: November 27, 2013, 09:01:18 AM »
Fordboy, Thanks for that. It should help Buddy but it sure helped me. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Tauruck,

You're welcome!   I'm happy to list my thoughts and experiences from my 35+ years of building and "refining" (ie, "repairing mistakes or built in factory weaknesses") racing engines.   Just my humble opinion though, as there are always more ways to "skin a cat".

I learned this method from a senior engineer of the Fel-Pro company, way back in the 70's.   It has always been useful for me, hope it works as well for you.

The big trick in all of this is to find the most "cost effective" method of problem solving which provides the level of reliability the owner (that would be the "check writer") can accept . . . .       How reliable do racing engines need to be?    I'm of the opinion that reliability IS a "performance factor".
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2182 on: November 27, 2013, 09:13:47 AM »
Buddy,

As others have pointed out, retorque of the head fasteners is critically important to head gasket reliability.   I just want to add my experience with alloy heads combined with cast iron blocks.    The difference in expansion rates between the two materials creates a "creep rate" at the gasket interface.   Best retorque procedure needs to start with a "cold" engine assembly.   I have found it to make a huge difference Vs. a "hot" retorque.    It is especially valid in engine assemblies where the head gasket clamp load may be marginal for the stresses applied.    This means you, Rover K-series engine lovers . . . . . . .    :roll:
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Roseville Carl

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2183 on: December 26, 2013, 01:20:07 AM »
Happy Holidays to all the FlatCad Crew and wishing you all the best in 14!!!!
"Keep Em Between the Whites"

and yes Virginia the world is indeed Flat

Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2184 on: January 02, 2014, 02:26:32 PM »
I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! :cheers:

Fordboy, thanks for the info! I'll read up on it!


Well, we haven't been around much, but we have been busy!
 
Bob and Danny have been color sanding the car, and rewiring everything. The car looks great! see pic. The car should show well at GNRS!
 
Don has been working on the mockup engine, and working with lock n stitch to repair the block. They repaired the known damage, only to find more. see pics. Good news though, the block should be finished in a week!
 
We have a new tee design, that we will roll out at GNRS.
 
Finally, here is a video for you to watch. We entered into the Champion sponsorship contest, and Misty Willey of Tulsa, OK did a couple of videos for us. Misty and Glen, Thank you SO MUCH!
 
Here is the one we entered, and the contest starts Monday. we sure could use all of your votes!
 
http://alwaysachampion.com/search-for-a-champion/entry/1568064#.UsILqbRPmLE
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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Offline Roseville Carl

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2185 on: January 02, 2014, 05:42:38 PM »
You know ya got ours!!!
"Keep Em Between the Whites"

and yes Virginia the world is indeed Flat

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2186 on: January 02, 2014, 07:01:36 PM »
    It is especially valid in engine assemblies where the head gasket clamp load may be marginal for the stresses applied.    This means you, Rover K-series engine lovers . . . . . . .    :roll:
 :cheers:
Fordboy

Funny how he can give kudos to you guys and slam my future plans all in one fell swoop . . .  :roll:

Geez - those old castings.  Carry on, guys.  The stiffer you make it, the easier it will be to work with.

I keep thinking of what was left of Pedro's Dodge banger . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline jpm49c

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2187 on: January 02, 2014, 08:19:05 PM »
As others have pointed out the best head gasket for blower engines is: NO HEAD GASKET!! Ala Offy or Ferrari Lampredi.
 And Crosley!

Offline Stainless1

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2188 on: January 02, 2014, 09:27:36 PM »
Yea, just too bad it didn't start life that way... would have make it a lot easier...

Can't vote for 4 more days, you may have to remind some of us old more experienced folks  :roll:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline fordboy628

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #2189 on: January 03, 2014, 08:35:42 AM »
    It is especially valid in engine assemblies where the head gasket clamp load may be marginal for the stresses applied.    This means you, Rover K-series engine lovers . . . . . . .    :roll:
 :cheers:
Fordboy

Funny how he can give kudos to you guys and slam my future plans all in one fell swoop . . .  :roll:

Mon ami, you wound me . . . .  not intended as a slam, just trying to raise awareness . . . . .

Geez - those old castings.  Carry on, guys. 

I recall when a "seasoned" casting was preferable . . . . . . . . .

Flattie,
Have you considered cryogenic treatment of the block casting to try to relieve stresses and/or improve the strength?   I'm unsure if this process could be used successfully at this stage of your engine build, (since it may impact a lot of precision machining), but I would consider consulting a firm that specializes in this process to inquire whether they can improve the block's strength with one of their processes.   It might be something to consider for the next engine buildup.   This is a process LOTS of pro teams use, and do not talk about.

http://www.customdesignperformance.com/ecatalog/cryo.html

http://www.aera.org/engine-professional/cryogenics/

These are a couple of reference sites.  Usually, the folks who do these processes, do not need to advertise . . . . . . . . . .
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein