Author Topic: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build  (Read 1031527 times)

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1425 on: November 25, 2012, 09:48:52 AM »
Wow  good good stuff ---which rods we you seeing more deflection on? The frt would be my guess!!

:cheers:
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:51:14 AM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1426 on: November 25, 2012, 11:26:10 AM »
Wow  good good stuff ---which rods we you seeing more deflection on? The frt would be my guess!!

:cheers:

Sparky - I'll bet you a beer the deflection is in the middle - the 3, the 4, the 5 and/or the 6.  They've stablized the front with that crank locator for the blower drive, essentially making an external  4th main bearing, and the transmission helps locate the rear.

Any takers?  :cheers:



"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1427 on: November 25, 2012, 11:31:30 AM »
Come on boys - get your deflection bets in!  

I'll be taking pictures of all the rod bearings today - will line them up in order.  Then we can see the wear patterns, determine which ones seem to have the biggest issues and then correlate them to which crankshaft rod journals have the most scoring on the back sides. (backside of the rod journals).

Hopefully there will be something to learn today . . .  guess we'll find out!

B&S
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Goal:  Have fun, make friends, be safe - learn as much as possible, contribute when I can and hopefully get in the books!

Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1428 on: November 25, 2012, 03:36:07 PM »

Take a look at the bearings - in pretty dang good shape. Maybe our 'priority main' oiling system kept them happy?  

Even though we're running a dry sump and this beast has an extremely tall deck (8.75" rods), there was plenty of oil up in the pins, the skirts looked really good and the Akerly HTD rings showed a really consistent sealing surface all around.
B&D


The stock priority oiling system is very good, no doubt about it. Adding the dry sump and more volume only adds to the success of the design!

Even though we had plenty of oil to the piston pins this year, it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about next year. We're discussing going to vacuum in the engine next year, so any benefit of 'splash oiling' we had will be lost. Even if we have adequate pin oiling, we can still benefit from cooling the pistons with oilers.

I don't agree, however, that we need to run 100 psi in this engine, for it to survive-not even close! I think if we could enlarge our oil ports, thereby increasing volume while decreasing pressure, we would be more successful. It would be better for the engine internals, and take less HP to run the oil pump.

Now, just like Paul Harvey- The Rest Of The Story!


For the amount of runs on the engine, the bearings look good. The front main bearing showed some crank flex, but I attribute that to the blower drive, since the front showed the most.

I'm interested to see if the rod bearing wear is confined to a couple of rods, or the center ones, as Chris suggested.

The pic of the rod bearing shows the effect of geometric irregularities. This could be because of crank flex, but there are other possible causes. A slightly bent rod, detonation, or rod journals ground with a slight 'hourglass' shape can also cause this wear.

There is even more to this story though, and I suspect it probably contributed to the wear- We misused the rev limiter this year. Instead of setting it higher than we needed, and only having it there in an emergency, we ran against the rev limiter, using it to determine the max RPM we hit each run.

Rex  was kind enough to point out the error of our ways, and the explanation made perfect sense to me. What we were doing was having some pistons loaded, then randomly unloaded, in no certain order. I can't help believe that this probably added to our crank flex.

The bearing clearances are one of those things that Dale and I have discussed in depth for the past year. I don't believe we can open the clearances up enough to not show wear from crank flex-the flex is bound to be more than the additional .002 or so that we would open them up. Nor do I think that it is necessary. The mains have the following clearances F = .0035, M = .0035, R = .004, and the rods have .025-.075. The Mains are 2.75", and the rods are 2.1"

Increasing bearing clearances are not necessary in my opinion, but finding out why we have that wear is. I truly believe proper use of the rev limiter will help, but I have no doubt that we will still have crank flex with the 3 main bearing setup.

Saltracer1, that's a darn good question! I was told, and under the impression that we were going to run coated bearings. I sent the cam bearings off to get coated, and was told that we would order coated SBC rod, and BBC mains, but I was not there when they were installed. I will be this time, and they will be coated.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 06:16:14 PM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1429 on: November 25, 2012, 04:24:19 PM »
Okay - been out in the shop . . . . pulling apart all the rod bearings and looking at things.  I believe I see a couple different things - but I'm going to ask the group what they see.   I'm not going to post my opinion as of yet - in the interest of not trying to prejudice any of yours!

I'm interested in what do you see:

1) What do the wear patterns tell you
2) What do the bearing colors tell you - set the back sides of the bearings. 

Info you might want to know:

a) Crankshaft Journal Wear:  there is some scoring (light) on the back sides of the rod journals (non-oil hole sides) - take a look at the prior post . . . you may be able to see it.  I can feel it with my finger nail on about 3 of the rod journals . . . BUT, some are in the middle and some are toward the rear (like #8 ).  The crank will probably need the rods ground.

b) Crank:  Billet Crower, 3 mains (remember, flathead!).  BBC main journals and SBC 2.1" rod journals.

c) Clearances:  Mains:  front and center .0035,  rear .004,  Rods:  .00225 to .0025.    ( Rods are billet Crower )

d) Oil System:  3 Stage Barnes dry sump - 2 suction, 1 pressure.

e) Oil Pressure:  It was set to 90 lbs - data logger shows it was consistent throughout our runs

f) Runs:  It has about 7 dyno runs, 8 or so 2 - 3 mile runs at Bonneville and 4 runs at the Ohio Mile . . . probably 3 or so hours of total run time.  We always warm up the engine prior to running.

g) Oil:  0W - 50W Mobile 1 Racing oil

Here are some pictures -- the order of the cylinders is the LEFT being #1, the RIGHT is #8.

Post what you see . . . and if you know any crankshaft and vintage engine gurus . . . ask them what they see . . .

Thanks!
Member of FlatCad Racing Team - 2011, 2012
Goal:  Have fun, make friends, be safe - learn as much as possible, contribute when I can and hopefully get in the books!

Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1430 on: November 25, 2012, 05:04:21 PM »

Saltracer1, that's a darn good question! I was told, and under the impression that we were going to run coated bearings. I sent the cam bearings off to get coated, and was told that we would order coated SBC rod, and BBC mains, but I was not there when they were installed. I will be this time, and they will be coated.


I'm the guy who put the bearings in the FlatCad - this is something that we actually talked about at the time.   Clevite makes both a V-Series and an H-Series style of performance bearings.   All their factory coated bearings start with a H-Series bearing.   The H-Series was initially designed for high rpm, small journal Nascar style engines running tight bearing clearances - they are fairly 'hard' by nature.

The reason we used the V-Series (which are not available coated - except for a few top-fuel Hemi sizes) is that they are a lot softer than H-series and gentler on crankshafts - especially big strokers and blown motors.  A lot of professional builders and racers like the Vandervell style V-Series bearings as they are softer, have a lot of conformity and take some pounding out of the crank journals.   They have a lead-indium alloy - which gives them a very smooth surface finish and the conformity that many builders like.   I discussed both bearing options with Jeff Fowler (our machinist) - he recommended we go with V-Series for this application.

With the above said, we really don't know exactly what style of bearing, what clearances and what oil pressure this engine likes . . . how rigid is a 3-main block?, how much flex are we having (block and crank)?, how much oil pressure is optimal, etc..   I'm sure a whole host of opinions will surface - gosh knows that is nothing new!  :-D

Also, there are companies that will coat our bearings - with a variety of different styles of coatings . . . might be worth trying if they give us some more protection.  (Many say this is the case).  I believe that one of our sponsors 'FinishLine' can coat them - probably worth a try.

You might say we're learning as we go . . . like everybody else in the LSR community!
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1431 on: November 25, 2012, 05:11:00 PM »
Hmmm, all I can say is- We will have coated bearing this year.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1432 on: November 25, 2012, 06:18:22 PM »
Bored and Stroked,
Show us a picture of the crank. You obviously had some "smegma" caught in the no.5 bearing that machined the "oil groove".

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1433 on: November 25, 2012, 06:32:32 PM »
Bored and Stroked,
Show us a picture of the crank. You obviously had some "smegma" caught in the no.5 bearing that machined the "oil groove".

Rex

Yep, some piece of crap went through the center main and the #5 rod bearing!   :-(

Here are some pictures of the rod journals that shows a bit of scoring on the back sides . . . journal to journal, they do vary a bit, but this is pretty representative.  Nothing extreme, but to me it shows contact/wiping and not enough oil film protection - now we need to know what to do about it.   With only a few hours on the setup, I'd expect to not have this . . . but my flathead experience is only blown Fords, so this baby is new to us all!

Thanks for looking - much appreciate your time!

Member of FlatCad Racing Team - 2011, 2012
Goal:  Have fun, make friends, be safe - learn as much as possible, contribute when I can and hopefully get in the books!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1434 on: November 25, 2012, 08:47:13 PM »
I went back and found the picts of the crank and I could not tell if it has cross drilled mains

WAY back in the day---I was a Ford guy---I was bound and determined that I could make a FE Ford turn 6500 and live long enough to beat a SBC---yeah I know but that is how youth is---one just does not know any better---

Long story short---I could not find anyone in Bryan TX who would grove a crank so that the rods oiled constantly ---so I just ran 2 uppers on the mains--Don Frisco had a cat--but it worked-----with all kinds of factory Ford 427 parts  I built a 361 cu in Ford that I would shift at 6500 and it would run over 160.
I would work on getting oil to those rods --CONSTANTLY --first


« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 07:50:54 AM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline saltracer1

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1435 on: November 25, 2012, 10:07:53 PM »
The reason I asked about coating the bearings is because a couple of years ago I messed up one rod bearing that was already coated by Swain and I had to replace it with a uncoated bearing. Upon disassembly the coated bearings looked pretty good and the single uncoated looked not so good. Now they are not the same brand and this is from a blown flathead Ford using Scat rods with the small journals (Buick V6 size I believe). The uncoated single rod bearing has Clevite 77 1 on it and the others are 2KL C811 AM (came from Speedway with the crank and rods).

Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1436 on: November 26, 2012, 07:28:13 AM »
The reason I asked about coating the bearings is because a couple of years ago I messed up one rod bearing that was already coated by Swain and I had to replace it with a uncoated bearing. Upon disassembly the coated bearings looked pretty good and the single uncoated looked not so good. Now they are not the same brand and this is from a blown flathead Ford using Scat rods with the small journals (Buick V6 size I believe). The uncoated single rod bearing has Clevite 77 1 on it and the others are 2KL C811 AM (came from Speedway with the crank and rods).

You must be running the 2.00" rod journals - was the Clevite bearing a CB-610?  I believe the coated part number is a King Bearing part number - I'll check them out for coated bearings for this application.  I've used King Bearings in a number of race engines - they are quite similar to the V-Series in that they are very smooth and softer than many others.  Lots of racers swear by them.   What I will do is see what types of coated bearings they make and report back.

By the way, my assumption is that you're running a Merc style crankshaft in your car - cast iron?
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Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1437 on: November 26, 2012, 07:29:27 AM »
Sparky:  The crank is cross-drilled on the mains -- thanks for bringing that up!
Member of FlatCad Racing Team - 2011, 2012
Goal:  Have fun, make friends, be safe - learn as much as possible, contribute when I can and hopefully get in the books!

Offline saltracer1

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1438 on: November 26, 2012, 12:00:47 PM »
The motor in question was running a complete assembly from Speedway with Scat crank and rods with Ross pistons.(4 1/4 x 3 3/8) I had the pistons and bearings coated by Swain Tech Coatings (swaintech.com). They even offer extra thick coatings for used pistons. Phil

Offline saltracer1

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1439 on: November 26, 2012, 12:08:04 PM »
The part number on the one bearing is CB610-p. Phil