Author Topic: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build  (Read 1031155 times)

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Offline Glen

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1350 on: October 16, 2012, 03:29:49 PM »
Buddy, if you pass thru St. George I'll have a cold beer or two for you. :cheers:
Glen
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Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1351 on: October 16, 2012, 03:46:47 PM »
Buddy, if you pass thru St. George I'll have a cold beer or two for you. :cheers:

Heck - that might make it worth a trip for me as well!  (Just kidding you!).  

My family is from out West - I've traveled through St. George many a time on vacation.  We were always heading from California to Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, South Dakota and Montana.   I've seen some unbelievably hot days on these trips in good ole' St. George.  Dad would crash at the Hotel while all us kids spent the whole time in the pool!  We'd let the ole' family station wagon cool off - then go like mad at night . . . usually still way over 100 degrees in mid-summer.   :-P
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Goal:  Have fun, make friends, be safe - learn as much as possible, contribute when I can and hopefully get in the books!

Offline Glen

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1352 on: October 16, 2012, 04:35:31 PM »
But it's dry heat unlike the south. We moved here from Calif. and no smog, blue skies, no crowds, little crime that is handled the old fashion way.  :cheers:
Glen
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1353 on: October 17, 2012, 04:12:32 PM »
Glen, Thanks so much for the invite, but I'll need a raincheck, if possible. This is going to be a quick trip, with a week spent in Cali, working on flow, seeing Dema about the cam, and visiting Don about the new girdle.

Here is an update from Dale, on the top of the engine tear down. For those that have followed the build, this is the first time we've posted actual pics of the chambers!


My wife Amy and I (yes, she's in the shop working with me on this) have pulled the FlatCad engine out of the car and started the dis-assembly process. I look at it more like a forensics process of paying complete attention to detail, looking at everything, suspecting everything and seeing what you can learn. If you take your time and really look for the minute details - they are frequently there. Sometimes you can make deductions (based on obvious facts) - other times you're applying all that you know in a creative manner to ATTEMPT to explain what you see.

Background on a Couple Key Things:

1) We have custom designed billet aluminum heads.
2) Due to this, we have custom designed head gaskets - .072 solid copper with a rubberized coating to attempt to seal the water passages.
3) Heads are O-ringed (not the block) - remember, this is a flathead.
4) We fill the engine with water at the start of the race day - and drain the water EVERY night. This is for fear that we'll seep some water into the engine (over night) and ruin it the next day. This has happened to many guys in our situation, so we're very cautious.

When I pulled to top of the motor off (blower, intercooler, manifolds, etc) - noticed we had a teaspoon of water in the bottom of the center exhaust port on the driver's side. This side did NOT have a new head gasket put on for the Ohio Mile and it was not re-torqued (as we'd torqued it at least 4 times before).

Hmmmm . . . water . . . not good. Where did it come from? We didn't see anything on the dyno, Bonneville or the Ohio Mile. Did this concern me - hell yes! Leaking intake studs? Cracked block? What?

I then pulled the plugs on all cylinders - notice a very slight amount of rust on one of the center cylinders on the driver's side. Hmmmm . . . that means that the water was also inside the cylinder . . . also not good.

Then we pulled the heads and here is what we found - yes, now I see an explanation and also realized a couple new things for next year:


See the rust in the transfer area - probably some on the seat as well

The head gasket was obviously leaking water into the cylinder - notice the discolored areas in the head and the gasket pictures (outlined in red).

Now - look at the passenger side (looks great!)

So here is what I noticed on tear down - which is why I do this by hand and I DON'T use air tools:

a) The torque on the driver's side was not what it should have been - was closer to 45 ft lbs, than 60. AND - this surely wasn't due to us not re-doing the torque many times (we did it 4 - 5 times at least) . . . during hot and cold cycling.

b) When I put the passenger head back on at the Ohio mile, I INCREASED the torque by 10 foot lbs . . . to 70 on the main/stock studs and 50 on the 7 that we added. This worked really well and the torque was maintained. The pictures show this.

Conclusions and Plans for Next Year:

1) Constant Re-Torque: No matter how many times you torque these heads - we need to check the torque after every run and ensure that the clamping forces are maintained. This also means that our new header design MUST be done in a manner that makes it easy to pull the headers. Currently, there is no way to retorque the heads with the engine in the car and the headers on.

2) Higher Torque: We're very sensitive to how much torque we use as the decks are pretty thin on this engine. Also, the seven added studs cannot be torqued like the stock ones that have the big cast-in bosses in the deck. But, we need to use the higher 70/50 torque settings . . . as this head was perfect and I didn't see any signs of gasket failures.

3) Heads - Some Rework: We need to rework the stud holes (too tight) and the stud washer setup. It is way too difficult to pull the heads - as there is too much binding within the stud holes, stud washers, thread sealers, etc.. I should be able to pull a head in about 15 minutes . . . currently it takes 3 hours on the car and over an hour outside the car. It is a TOTAL pain in the butt!

4) Adding Deck Dowel Pins: If we're going to loosen up the stud clearances, we should add 2 dowel pins to the deck - to guarantee alignment and non-movement.

5) Head Inspection: Due to the possibility of water with solid copper head gaskets, we need to pull the heads after EVERY meet - to inspect for water, oil the bores and valves, etc.. We can't afford to have even small amount of rust in the cylinders, valve seats, etc.. This needs to be a part of our standard operating procedures. It is also why it needs to be easy to pull the Dodge heads!

More tonight - as I'll now take the lower-end apart . . .

B&S

Thanks for the help Amy!  
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 06:18:33 PM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1354 on: October 17, 2012, 04:18:31 PM »
Um, Dale? Did you forget that at Bonneville, we had the same issue on the passenger side, and we found it when we tore down for engine verification??!!

Here is the passenger side.

I'm headed to Dale's tonight, so there will be a bottom end update tomorrow!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 04:36:28 PM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1355 on: October 17, 2012, 04:27:53 PM »
Dale, Buddy, Don, Amy, nice work.Detail and analysis.....oh yeah, not long to wait for that story, early Nov from what I remember.

DrG
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Offline SteveM

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1356 on: October 17, 2012, 05:14:16 PM »
Forgive me for asking what may seem obvious, but what do you think causes the need for constant re-torquing?  Do the head gaskets continue to compress, or is it something else?

Steve.
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1357 on: October 17, 2012, 05:59:37 PM »
Forgive me for asking what may seem obvious, but what do you think causes the need for constant re-torquing?  Do the head gaskets continue to compress, or is it something else?

Steve.

I think it's a combination of things, and we just haven't got the procedure perfected yet. I think the blasted copper gaskets are an issue, as they never seal water good. Cosmetic will make me gaskets, but only up to .059' thick-not the .072" we need.

I would much prefer steel heads, but whittling them is intense! Add over 16 psi boost, heating and cooling several times, blah, blah, blah!

We torque the heads, get them hot, cool them off, and re-torque. It takes several times before we like the torque readings. I don't think having head bolts with 2 different torque settings help, but we don't have much choice.

We'll make it work-it's just a pain in the rear!
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline jdeleon

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1358 on: October 17, 2012, 06:26:09 PM »
It seems you aren't leaking combustion but sucking water.  Some thoughts on this.  I use Valco Hylomar spray on all copper gasketed engines I build.  This eliminated water problems.   How proud is your o-ring?  I always put the o-ring on the iron side...block or sleeve flange.  The aluminum will distort or conform better than the iron. 

Offline jdincau

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1359 on: October 17, 2012, 08:47:54 PM »
We use plain crushable spark plug gasket washers to seal around the water tranfer holes. The copper gaskets have holes just larger than the od of the plug washers. This setup has proven reliable on a non pressurised system.
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Offline Koncretekid

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1360 on: October 17, 2012, 09:18:15 PM »
Regarding alignment after you solve the sticking bolts in the head, you might be able to just make sleeves that fit around a couple of head bolts, if you have enough "meat" to loose a couple of threads in the block (counter bore the head and the block at two of the bolts).  This is what I did to re-align the head to the cylinder on my BSA.
Tom
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Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1361 on: October 18, 2012, 01:27:35 AM »
Bite the bullet; convert to dry deck/head surfaces, reconfigure the coolant flow paths appropriately.
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Offline jl222

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1362 on: October 18, 2012, 12:46:46 PM »
 
  38 Flattie...we use a thin layer of high temp silicone around the water holes,just a dab and smear with finger around the hole. On block 1st, then on top of gasket under head. Head gasket is 50 thou. copper, works good.

           JL222
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 12:55:31 PM by jl222 »

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1363 on: October 18, 2012, 01:49:18 PM »
Buddy, Dale, et al. Tighter is not always better! In my early wrenching days I had problems with a copper gasketed Honda motorcycle. The solution was to moly-lube all the moving parts of the bolted joint and reduced the torque to minimum values. Also annealed the copper between races.

Bolts and studs are glorified extension springs and if you pull too hard they stretch and the screen door will no longer close!  :-o

Or if the joint is subsequently loaded too high by thermal expansion!  :-(

A few years later I spent some time designing some automated rod bolt stretch gauges for automotive companies. Torque to yield was just coming on the scene about then but I am still fascinated with fasteners!

Very good overview here of the complexities of simple bolted joints: www.boltscience.com
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Offline Queeziryder

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #1364 on: October 18, 2012, 02:46:34 PM »
HUH
Wer'd Glen's post go???

BTW
Brilliant idea Glen  :cheers:
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