Author Topic: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question  (Read 7633 times)

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LittleLiner

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Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« on: July 19, 2010, 05:59:55 PM »
This question deals with cars in either Production, Production Supercharged, GT or Blown GT.  I’ve been searching around the postings looking at things that have been written about reduced displacement.   . . . . Stuff like running a v8 on 4 cylinders by removing pushrods, or pistons etc, etc.

Question:  Is running a reduced displacement engine ‘legal’ in the production category? 

I think the answer is ‘yes’.   I guess I could send off a question to the committee guys . . . but for now would rather see what the consensus is out here in Landracing.com land.

Thanks   Art

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 01:47:24 AM »
Art -

In production, just about anything is allowed with the engine, provided it's not specifically prohibited.  GT does allow swaps, but "original configuration" is required for other production cars. 

So the configuration remains the same, but with a few missing parts? :roll:  Is removing pistons a modification, or a change in configuration?  The block hasn't changed, so if it were up to me (it's not), I'd call it a modification.   

You have to maintain stock port locations, and you can't convert a OHV to a OHC, but other than that, it's my understanding that if the engine meets the requirement for the class, what you do with the internals is left to your discretion.

Chris



 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline dw230

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 12:45:11 PM »
Yes, you can run a reduced displacement engine in the Production classes. The caveat is that the engine must be available in the year/model of the vehicle you run. The difference is in GT where any engine from the same manufacturer is allowed. For example, a Honda motorcycle specific engine is not allowed in a Honda car unless you can prove it is an engine option.

As always, be prepared to defend your position in the Production classes with approiate documentation.

DW
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Offline trimmers

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2010, 11:12:15 AM »
Regarding a Honda motorcycle engine in a Honda car - provided the car in question is a 2-seater, such as an S-600, S-800, CRX, Insight, etc., which qualifies for the GT/Sports class - why not?  The rules for this class state that "Engine swaps are permitted as long as they are of the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche, etc.)".  There's no mention of the swapped-in engine having to be an option for the car in question, or any prohibition on the use of a motorcycle engine in a car (provided they're from the same manufacturer). 

I'm aware that there's a sentence in the GT/Sports rules reading "Rules for this class will be strictly enforced to ensure that cars entered therein are typical of street machines which may be purchased from an automobile dealer."   This a rather vague statement, to say the least!  Just what does it mean?

Additionally, the definition of "Engine Swap" in 4.N states "An engine swap is defined as the use of an engine from an engine design family that was not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a given vehicle year is used."   Since the GT/Sports rules specifically allow engine swaps, this would appear to prohibit use of an engine if it WAS available as an option.

Finally, what about the Hasport Insight?  It currently holds the record in G/GT - and that class is for (appx) 1.5-2.0 liter engines.  I think Insights were originally equipped with a 995-cc, 3-cylinder engine.  So, it would appear that this particular vehicle had an engine swap, and I very seriously doubt if any other engines were optional for the Insight.  I'd guess this car may well have some version of the Honda S-2000 engine, which would be a hot set-up, indeed!

So, if there's any tech inspectors out there reading this, what's your take on it?  Can a motorcycle engine be swapped into a GT/Sports car, provided the car and engine were built by the same manufacturer?  If not, why?

Jeff in Boise
------------- 1 of just 3 in all 3  -------------
USFRA 130 MPH Club 09/18/2008 136.757
USFRA 150 MPH Club 09/17/2009 152.162
Bonneville 200 MPH Club 09/15/2019 218.600
Best Run: 253.080 MPH 09/14/2019 #6556

Offline Glen

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2010, 11:54:41 AM »
Jeff, please don't double post,thanks
Glen
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South West, Utah

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2010, 12:14:16 PM »
Courtesy of Dan Warner - he certifies records for the SCTA - extracted from a previous thread - reply #42 -

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4936.0.html


"Page 70
"The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer."

Page 72 & 74
"Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and a starter capable of starting the engine may be used so long as the original running gear design is retained."

The first sentence is from the 2008 rulebook. The section is the overall rules for the five Production Category classes. The second sentence is from the same book, underlines mine, covers both the Production class and the GT class. Reference is made back to these two classes in the PS, PP and MPP classes.

The way I see it is that a motorcycle engine into a car is NOT allowed based on the ANY automobile dealer caveat. If you could buy a motorcycle engine from the automobile dealer can the "original running gear design" be retained?

If you can provide documenatation to fulfill the requirements of these rules then you may have a chance to create a successful build."

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline trimmers

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2010, 01:27:32 PM »
I definitely have to disagree with the part about "The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile Dealer.".  In the GT/Sports class, (unlike the other classes in the Production Category) there is a clause that specifically permits engine swaps, which are defined (in 4.N.) as NOT being available as a factory or dealer-installed option.  If this is not permissible in the GT/Sports classes, how do you explain the record-holding G/GT (1.5-2.0 liter) Honda Insight?

On the other hand, you may have a point regarding the "original running gear" requirement.  The sentence in which it appears reads "Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and an on-board starter shall be used, so long as the original running gear design is retained."   Unfortunately, I don't see where "original running gear design" is defined.  Does that just include the transmission, rear end, and starter as mentioned in the subject sentence?  In order to maintain the "original running gear design" was that record-setting Insight required to have an electric motor assist, with which it was originally equipped?  I'd think that it was certainly part of the "original running gear design".

It looks like there's pretty good arguments on both sides of this question.  Maybe the rules need a bit of tweaking to clear things up.   I really don't know anything about that particular Honda Insight.  However, it may have set some kind of precedent.  I guess I'll talk to the tech guys in a couple of weeks and see what they have to say.

Does anybody else have anything to add?

Jeff in Boise

 
------------- 1 of just 3 in all 3  -------------
USFRA 130 MPH Club 09/18/2008 136.757
USFRA 150 MPH Club 09/17/2009 152.162
Bonneville 200 MPH Club 09/15/2019 218.600
Best Run: 253.080 MPH 09/14/2019 #6556

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2010, 01:56:31 PM »
Hey, Jeff -

Yes -

Regarding the Insight, the overreaching intro to the production category states that you have to run a stock power pack, and the displacement of the engine determines the class.  Page 72 of the 2010 rulebook.

One other thing - in the case of the Insight, the drivetrain is a parallel hybrid design with regenerative braking.  Be tough to do with an engine swap and keep the "original running gear design".

I like the idea of the S-600/S-800.  If it were to pass muster with the folks as a "GT", I believe the engines in both of those vehicles WERE motorcycle based, which would give you some legit latitude for a swap.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

LittleLiner

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2010, 02:12:45 PM »
First, let me apologize for this thread diverting into the old "bike engine in a car for GT classes debate."  That was NOT my intent.  One reply mentioned that you could not put a bike engine in a production category class car in his reply (I suspect) since he is aware that I am building a bike engined car (not for GT but for Gas Coupe). 

Actually, I asked the original question specifically for some coworkers that have been reading my rule book and wanted to see if it was OK to shutdown two cylinders in a car with it's original, factory equipped, engine in Pro and PS and if it was also permitted in GT and BGT?  That's all . . . 

As far as the S600 originally having a 'bike' engine . . .that's true.  But that fact does not automatically imply that you can then swap in any other Honda bike engine. 

Maybe someone can start another topic about the interpretation of the terminology allowing swaps of any engine from the same manufacturer in the GT and BGT classes.  Example, Fiat and Chrysler are now joined in a deal as a single car company.  So, is it now allowed to run a Chrysler Hemi in a Fiat 850 spyder in the GT class?  Or how about a Pontiac Soltice.  They are (were?) GM products.  Is it allowed swap in an engine from another GM line like a Buick?  Is the "Manufacturer" Pontiac or General Motors?

Whatever the answer is, I am now confident that the allowable engines may be run with some cylinders 'removed' to go to a smaller displacement class . . . .

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2010, 02:27:48 PM »
First, let me apologize for this thread diverting into the old "bike engine in a car for GT classes debate." 

I stand guilty of that charge.  Sorry 'bout that. :|
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2010, 02:37:02 PM »
The Honda Sports (S360-S800) engines were not based on a motorcycle engine!   :mrgreen:

Introduced at the 1962 Tokyo Motor Show, inline DOHC, 4 carbs, RWD (with the wacky chain-drive IRS)

http://www.hondasportsregistry.com/index.php  :cheers:

Would make a cool modified sports though.

Mike

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LittleLiner

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2010, 02:55:44 PM »
The Honda Sports (S360-S800) engines were not based on a motorcycle engine!   :mrgreen:
. . . . . .
Mike

I stand corrected.  Thanks Mike.   Maybe a better example should have been one of the Berkeleys. 

Offline dw230

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2010, 05:20:24 PM »
Little,

No, I did not know you are building a 'bike' engined car. A tiny bit paranoid?

DW
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Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

Don't be Karen, be Beth

LittleLiner

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2010, 06:37:38 PM »
Little,

No, I did not know you are building a 'bike' engined car. A tiny bit paranoid?

DW

(. . .Was in the midst of my response and my internet connectivity blew a rod .  . . . just got it back)  Anyway I was going to say . . .  describing me a a 'tiny bit paranoid' is a gross understatement.  :>)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 08:29:08 AM by LittleLiner »

Offline dw230

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Re: Pro, PS, GT, BGT question
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2010, 07:34:23 PM »
 :?

DW
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Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

Don't be Karen, be Beth