Author Topic: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty  (Read 82888 times)

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Blue

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Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« on: July 17, 2010, 01:54:56 PM »
I hope this provokes a lively discussion, this is a subject that I believe everyone in LSR can understand and benefit from with the end result of faster records and safer vehicles.

First, I mean no disrespect to Costella or any builder or contender in LSR.  My concern and comments on the previous thread come from my knowledge of vehicle mechanical-aerodynamic stability and control.  My concern is that speeds have now exceeded the area of mechanical stability and entered the area where aerodynamic stability dominates and the knowledge base of LSR is not yet wide or deep enough for safety.

I spoke to a senior SCTA board member last year about the need for the higher speed vehicles to prove their stability with analysis before going too fast, and we had a good discussion about the costs and where the break point could be for that analysis.  I am still searching for a reasonable CFD cost solution for everyone and have not found it yet.  However, my experience in S&C (stability and control) concerns me about some of the designs I see vs. the speeds people are seeking.

Most LSR designers use the idea of a "Cp" as a plot of the lateral area of their vehicles and presume that if the CG is forward of the 50% point of this plot, then the vehicle is stable in yaw.  This is simply not true.

First, most symetrical aerodynamic surfaces rotate around the "quarter chord point" or only 25% of the length.  This is called the "yaw neutral point".  Very few LSR vehicles have their CG forward of this.  Even so, at relatively low airspeeds (below 200 mph) the dynamic pressure is low enough that mechanical stability can override the aerodynamics.  Above 300 mph, the opposite is true and any vehicle that is not solely stable aerodynamically will not be recoverable if it loses traction.  Downforce can increase the mechanical advantage, but it is a bad trade since downforce usually leads to pitch instability.

Tails or other large vertical surfaces mounted far aft are used in some designs and can radically improve the overall vehicle's yaw neutral point.  However, blunt tails (like chute tubes) can reduce their effect.  Some of the vehicles currently seeking 400 mph are nearly neutral in stability due to their aft CG and high degree of aft separation.  There are solutions and a few in the 400 mph club have done a very good job of addressing this issue.  Some haven't, and that scares me.

At least a first-order, algebra-based stability calculation should be required of any motorcycle going over 200 and any car going over 300.  As speeds increase, the mechanical stability is going down exponentially with speed (dependent on surface condition, traction, and tire dynamics) and up linearly with downforce.  Countering this, aerodynamic instability increases with the square of speed.  At some speed the two lines cross and things can go bad very quickly.  Since most motorcycles do not have downforce, this equation leads to the need for positive yaw stability at the starting line.  Worse, downforce-based stability is at the mercy of driver skill;  and I like to be kinder to my drivers.

The REAL danger is that this "negative stability" speed may have already been achieved without external upset and then the vehicle makes another similar run and encounters an upset due to surface or wind conditions and suffers an uncontrolled departure; i.e. SPIN.  Think about all of those guys who have gone fast in roadsters or stock body cars and then spun at less speed.  Their driving skill may have saved them in the past, this does not mean it will forever.  At any combination of speed, surface, and wind condition it is the LSR vehicle's job to go straight, not to demand an ever-increasing level of dynamic driver input.

In aviation, we call the ability to handle instability the "velvet glove": a VERY complimentary term for the pilot.  And a not-so-complimentary one for the engineer who made it necessary.  As an engineer I don't like being the butt of jokes, so I make the things that I design stable and controllable.  My pilots appreciate this and bitch about other engineers instead.

All of this relates to yaw stability and spins.  Pitch and roll stability is another subject entirely and much more complex.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 11:05:52 AM by Blue »

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 02:47:26 PM »
Eric:

Do you have any recommended sources of information that we could use to broaden our knowledge in this and the other related fields without each and every one of us becoming aerodynamic engineers.

Pete

Offline jl222

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 02:57:45 PM »

  Blue... If the cg of the 222 car was at 25% it would spin out for sure and would be undriveable before that.

         JL222

saltfever

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 04:43:35 PM »
I think you hit a key note Eric with the word “discussion”. I hope comments are not taken negatively and argumentative but are received as “educational”.  

I read your comment about Jack’s new 8080 yesterday but didn’t understand your assumptions. I have not seen the inside of the new car but assume it follows earlier designs. Jack’s cars have two large billets of aluminum for front wheels. I’m not sure of the weight but they are located at the end of a very long moment. If you look at driver location, and his center-of-mass, it is probably quite forward of the windshield. I’m guessing that the 750 cc engine is aluminum and quite light. You said “all that weight in back”, I am assuming you meant a rearward CG; is that really true? Looking at the car sideways it is fairly easy to see the CP. It is not as easy to see the CG but my guess it is deceptively forward of the middle of the car due to the mass of the front wheels. I’m only giving another perspective here for your review because of the following questions.

If there is less flat area in front of the CG than flat area behind the CG; isn’t that pitch stable?

I’m trying to establish the 50% and 25% “quarter chord point” distance. Do you subtract the CP distance from the wheelbase and then move the CG 25% forward of that? Sorry about the confusion . . . could you use some numbers as an example?  TIA  :-)

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:41:33 PM by saltfever »

Offline maguromic

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 07:15:07 PM »
I am looking forward to this discussion and learning something.    With the help of some very knowledgeable people we are looking at the correlation of different tire shapes and air and the effects it has on our car. Once I have some good data other than hearsay to post I will share it on this thread. Blue, thanks for starting the topic. Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline nebulous

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2010, 02:12:53 AM »
blue
You might not ever figure out why my designs are succsesful. Although you seem to know how to make them better! Thanks for the interest! I will be watching for some hot tips!Jack
Jack Costella   
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Offline Schruiber

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 10:13:22 AM »
Fascinating topic to read - I enjoy the friendly "tug-of-war".

The June 2010 issue of Racecar Engineering has a 4 page article by Simon McBeath about CFD. It talks about free 'open source' vs. vendor supplied software.
At our High School, where I teach manufacturing and home of the first All Girls Shell Eco-marathon team, we use Cosmos within Solidworks for our very basic CFD, and have a low speed wind tunnel which allows 1:10 scale models.

Michael
T-2011 - Granite Falls HS UrbanAutos Diesel - 31.16668MPH over the measured mile  at WoS 2011.

Offline dw230

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 10:49:22 AM »
Tony,

I may be able to save you some time and expense. Tires are round.

DW
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Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

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Offline maguromic

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 11:00:01 AM »
Dan, you shouldn’t do that in the morning, I dropped my tea all over myself.  Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline roadsterswap

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 11:13:03 AM »
I always hear the "Big Brains" speak of aerodynamic designs based upon text book theories. I see very  few "experts"  build or drive their own designs ( I am sure there will be many postings with the photos of experts cars and all their success, such as Burkland). I know there may be cross over in theory between airplane design and streamliner design, but have yet to see it demonstrated or explained without it being negated or minimized, or completely ignored. I think it is a big leap to say that an apple is just like an orange. Poor me who has so little faith, and cannot believe without touching, seeing and reading the record books.

Blue

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 11:20:19 AM »
blue
You might not ever figure out why my designs are succsesful. Although you seem to know how to make them better! Thanks for the interest! I will be watching for some hot tips!Jack
LOL! Jack, I'll take a stab at it: lots of power in a small vehicle with good mechanical stability from a long wheelbase.  Simple rules work best, and you do a good job of paying attention to that.  I really like your small displacement stuff.  

JL- yes, a CG at 25% is impractical and would lead to a mechanically unstable vehicle:  one that might spin long before it got up to a speed at which the aero stability could take over.

Keep it coming everybody, and be critical too.  This is about safety and a broader understanding for everyone.

Offline donpearsall

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 11:32:31 AM »
Blue,
I am not an aerodynamic expert, but I have built experimental airplanes and lots of motorcycles. I was interested in your comment that motorcycles have "no downforce". I have to disagree. If you look at most bikes with factory bodywork and windsheilds, you can see that there is a lot more surface area providing downforce than upforce. Because the frontal area of bikes is such that the bottom half is much more dirty and upright with relation to the relative wind than the top side, there is ample downforce.
Maybe the A2 wind tunnel member here can vouch for that (or not).

I agree that bikes need to pay attention to aero stability, but so far it has not been a problem, even with with speeds up to 270 mph.

Don
550 hp 2003 Suzuki Hayabusa Land Speed Racer

Offline maguromic

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 11:56:12 AM »
 DW, in all seriousness, the amount of camber, how the tire was shaped all has effects on the car.  In a streamliner the wheel-well and the tire play a major role in the effects of the air underneath the car. The tires are just air pumps and what ever you do up front effects what happens down stream.   Blue, In a streamliner going over 300 what is the correlation of the volume of air in the wheel tub versus the tire and the shape of the wheel tub?  I would think there is some optimal percentage.

We have been working with both the Good Year engineers and Nate on the tire issue and their shape.  One thing they both wanted us to do was build our wheels with taller beads to keep the tires on at high speed. As the tires get up to speed the crown starts to grow and tend to pull the tires of the bead.  I had no idea, but this one of the reasons they want high pressure in LSR tires.  Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 12:53:54 PM »
Blue,
............

I agree that bikes need to pay attention to aero stability, but so far it has not been a problem, even with with speeds up to 270 mph.

Don

We took care for aero stability....that's the reason why there was no problem with a speed over 270 mph  :roll: :cheers:
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline joea

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Re: Aerodynamic vs. vehicle stabilty
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 03:18:27 PM »
uh don....everything is relative....

...ie stability.....


..Joe :)