drag radials

[NathanStewart]

pg 19 under 2F clearly states that over 200mph what is required is "special tires for racing as designated by the manufacturer" - what it does not state is for what type of racing they were designated

What type of racing?  How about land speed racing?

front runners are designed for drag racing and not land speed racing

Goodyear does indeed make an LSR tire that is based on the "front runner" drag tire.

 

... which by the way is what you'll find on most LSR cars using Goodyear "Front Runners".

You using a potentially unacceptable tire simply because you don't want to buy the correct tires isn't progressing our sport IMO.  Sounds to me like you're being cheap and want to work around the rules but you're disguising this by getting philosophical. 

But hey, you already got approval so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.  I will say that I agree with Dynoroom and that I would not use a 10.5" wide winkle wall soft compound drag tire that is only designed to be used a quarter mile at a time. 

See ya in inspection. 

[Dynoroom]

Are you going to be running a FWD car that needs a shorter tire to fit?  If not, what is driving you to want to use drag radials? 

96 firebird B/FALT rwd running on a 237 record. Miles away from the speeds that he ^^^ ran (incredible BTW!). I don't have anywhere near the beans for that but I think I have a pretty fair shot at getting near the 237 mark. I'd like to run the drag radials because A: I have them and they fit (275/50r15 which is 26 tall x 10.5 tread), B: as mentioned before I don't have $2000 for a set of Goodyear LSR tires C: I have access to NASCAR superspeedway tires but they are 28 x 10.5 which screws up my whole combo because I have to jack up the rear end to make them not rub D:You said yourself that front runners have proven to be a reliable land speed racing tires whereas drag radials have not - how would you plan to prove their reliability then? How did front runners prove their reliability? E: pg 19 under 2F clearly states that over 200mph what is required is "special tires for racing as designated by the manufacturer" - what it does not state is for what type of racing they were designated. i.e front runners are designed for drag racing and not land speed racing yet they are used quite often with very little issue. Actually, the Hoosier rep told me specifically NOT to use their front runners for land speed racing because he did not think they would hold up.
Dyno you said you would never run a drag radial. Even on a car going 70mph? Why not?

We all know we're not talking freeway speeds here or the question wouldn't have come up.
But the main reasons for me not to run drag radials is because "generally speaking" LSR cars that run on the salt either weigh quite a bit more (mine do) or have more down force than drag cars that run the type of tire you propose. The side wall construction is designed to "give" a bit with lower air pressures to aid traction on the drag strip. This sidewall flex in a heavy car could be an issue at speed on a surface we already know to be somewhat slick. I'm not saying they can't spin the speed you need to go for the amount of "time" they need to be there (but we don't know do we) just saying you might not like some of the "other" things that happen along the way. But if Steve says you can run 'em great. I have no problem learning from others.
Stop by at Speed Week and let me know how your doing with this test.

Good Luck with your project. 

[RichFox]

Mike makes my point. I like to look at things as a "Risk to Reward ratio" Get up in the morning. "Should I rob a bank today?" Risk- Get caught, go to jail, lose everything. Reward- couple grand. Not a good ratio. No bank today. Here revolutionary is willing to risk some time and money. The reward may be an inexpensive, readily available tire that works for some of us. Seems a fair trade off. No risk to me and a possable reward. Today there are lots of tires around and they are not as much of a consideration as they once were. But who knows when that will change. If there was a useful tire you could order from Summit, what is the down side?

[4-barrel Mike]

The last line in Mike's signature says it all.

Mike

[Rick Byrnes]

I started this post a number of times over the last few days, but never finished.  I don't post much, but feel compelled to address this topic.

At present there is NO public data on running a drag radial to failure EXCEPT the design engineers at the manufacturers.  They will NOT release that information because of liabilities.  You want to run these DOT/Drag  tires at MY venue and go on your head when it fails at the big end, I don't get it.......and I don't want to see it.  There are smarter ways of pushing the envelope these days.

For those that don't know me, I ran a Merkur F/PS during the 90's ane early 2000's with a reasonable amount of success.  I have moved on to do my present liner which hopefully will be done next summer.
I also worked with Ford on the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Fusion 999.  We went 207 MPH with an electric car, with no batteries.

My Merk was only around 700 HP, and 4200 pounds, wet ready to race. (pretty heavy for a 102" wheelbase car.)
 I did not have unexpected major traction problems.

I didn't always listen to the "wise, old, left coast experts" and even ran 28" Talladega tires one year till I spun around 180something
and almost took out the lights.  Switched to GY front runners and made a record knocking on the door of 200.

For a number of years I was lucky enough to have Michelin/BF Goodrich as a sponsor.  and I worked very closely with a Michelin engineer who even would attend the Maxton meets with me as long as I didn't tell anyone who he was.
Pointedly we had a really good trusting relationship.

When I asked about trying drag radials, the immediate answer was no.  They were mostly concerned with vehicle weight, heat and high speed stability.  They had all the info on my car and recommended what they "knew" would be safe.

I don't know how to engineer a tire, but do know how to listen to an expert.  The guy that designs these things is the expert.

The typical "Tire Company Representative" is not the engineer that designs and validates the product and is not qualified to say ok to run them.

With all due respect to the SCTA Tech guy that said it is ok to run them, I think it is the wrong thing to do. Especially when there are tires available to do the job.

It has nothing to do with being innovative or ground breaking,   It is just plain stupid to run a tire designed for drag racing on a heavy car at speeds way over 200.  I think a speed of 237 was mentioned.

I'm getting a little tired of the guys from other forms of racing or street cars not wanting to spend the money to make their car safe for very high speeds, coming around saying OH, my car is safe, the salesman told me it is so change the rules to let me run with the big dogs.
People get hurt in our sport, and I would hate to see it because someone insisted on defining the limits of a tire by trial and error.
There are certainly better ways of testing a tire.

Joe Law when he retired from LSR, had a tire testing machine that was "FOR SALE" he said real cheap.  I'll bet no one stepped up.  (even me), because there are now good tires for 200 to 300 MPH and higher.  They are costly, but nobody said it was gonna be cheap..or easy

I'm with Mikey.  I would not run a drag radial on the salt.  No way, no how.

Actually I wouldn't run them on the street either even at 70 MPH.

[thundersalt]

Rick, I'm glad you posted this. I too have been reading this thread with the same feelings you have. Anyone running a car 3 to 5 miles over 200 MPH needs to have lsr tires ( in my opinion). I found out the hard way.

[jl222]

Are you going to be running a FWD car that needs a shorter tire to fit?  If not, what is driving you to want to use drag radials? 

96 firebird B/FALT rwd running on a 237 record. Miles away from the speeds that he ^^^ ran (incredible BTW!). I don't have anywhere near the beans for that but I think I have a pretty fair shot at getting near the 237 mark. I'd like to run the drag radials because A: I have them and they fit (275/50r15 which is 26 tall x 10.5 tread), B: as mentioned before I don't have $2000 for a set of Goodyear LSR tires C: I have access to NASCAR superspeedway tires but they are 28 x 10.5 which screws up my whole combo because I have to jack up the rear end to make them not rub D:You said yourself that front runners have proven to be a reliable land speed racing tires whereas drag radials have not - how would you plan to prove their reliability then? How did front runners prove their reliability? E: pg 19 under 2F clearly states that over 200mph what is required is "special tires for racing as designated by the manufacturer" - what it does not state is for what type of racing they were designated. i.e front runners are designed for drag racing and not land speed racing yet they are used quite often with very little issue. Actually, the Hoosier rep told me specifically NOT to use their front runners for land speed racing because he did not think they would hold up.
Dyno you said you would never run a drag radial. Even on a car going 70mph? Why not?

 You might take a look at the goodyear eagle sports car GT series tires, thet have a 25'' and a 26.8'' 10.5'' wide in 15'' and 16'' rims

  #1995 and #1996 .....$199 and $204  some of the faster sports cars are way up there in speed and they punish and torture their tires
way more than in LSR.


             JL222

[Dr Goggles]

Are there a few people here confusing "Frontrunners" with Goodyear "Landspeeds" that have Frontrunner  moulded in the sidewall....but are of vastly different construction?

Personally, I don't see $500 as too much to pay for a tire the manufacturer rates to 300mph , and I'm driving a car at under 200 that will probably carry a wheel if it blows a tire, like, how much have you spent on your motor?....... If I was in a door car , i'd be saving my experimentation for things other than a cheaper line on tires, plenty of people have come unstuck and got hurt under 200.

And I'm scratching for every dollar.

Dr G

[desotoman]

Are there a few people here confusing "Frontrunners" with Goodyear "Landspeeds" that have Frontrunner  moulded in the sidewall....but are of vastly different construction?

Dr G

Dr G,

Long before Goodyear ever made "Landspeed tires" some people used the standard dragracing frontrunner tires. As I remember Gail Banks got Goodyear to OK a speed rating of 300mph for the standard dragrace frontrunnner. This was when no new tires were available. Since that time Goodyear has come out with
"Landspeed Tires" which are far superior, to the dragrace tire.

Does this help to clear up any misunderstanding?

Tom G.

[jl222]

Are there a few people here confusing "Frontrunners" with Goodyear "Landspeeds" that have Frontrunner  moulded in the sidewall....but are of vastly different construction?

Dr G

Dr G,

Long before Goodyear ever made "Landspeed tires" some people used the standard dragracing frontrunner tires. As I remember Gail Banks got Goodyear to OK a speed rating of 300mph for the standard dragrace frontrunnner. This was when no new tires were available. Since that time Goodyear has come out with
"Landspeed Tires" which are far superior, to the dragrace tire.

Does this help to clear up any misunderstanding?

Tom G.

  In 1994 we had a time of 288 mph with an exit speed of 279 [ trans gave up] using the non lsr Goodyear frontrunner tire, 10'' tire in rear same as Banks, we still have them up in storage and they don't have any CRACKS. We replaced them with a smaller tire as the top of the tire was slightly rubbing the inner fender. We also had times of 275 mph and 261 - 265 and 267 with no sign of problem.

                          JL222

                       

[doug odom]

If Jon or someone else could get Denis Manning or Tom Burkland to chime in on this subject it would be wonderful. I talked to Denis for about a half hour at the gas up a couple years ago about LSR tires and the testing he had done. His knowledge of the causes of most tire LSR failure is very insightful. I've been racing for over 45 years in Sportscar, NASCAR, Motorcycles and LSR. I have done tire testing at Riverside and Ontario with Firestone and Goodyear and Denis still told me things about race tires I had not heard.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

In re: Doug Odom's idea of asking Tom Burkland or Denis Manning about tires -- I don't about Denis' on-line habits and so don't know if he reads this Forum.   I do know that Tom does sometimes (maybe always?) does read here, but doesn't sign in or respond.  I'll assume that's for his personal good reason, so will only encourage him (should he read this) to either contact me via email with a response to the query, or to contact Doug to give him the scoop.

Best I can do for now. . .

[mike mendoza]

[revolutionary]

Well we had a great time on the salt this year. Thanks Nathan for the good rookie orientation. Mike Spacek(?) checked our tires after every run and was extremely helpful in making sure that we were as safe as possible. We progressively ran the tires up to 186 in the 1/4 and in debating whether to keep incrementally moving up 5mph at a time I figured we only had one or two runs left (head gasket pushing water) so we swapped over to a set of 28 x 4.5 goodyear front runners that a friend of mine had to make a nitrous pass. I can say without a doubt the drag radials were WAAAY more stable above 175mph than the front runners. I made a pass with them thurs when the x winds were pretty bad and pulled the chute at 182 i was moving around so much then friday morn made a run with very little wind and still felt the car hunting pretty good at 185-195 on the long course. Head gasket was totally done by then so no more speed than that to compare.
I hope that Mike was able to get with Steve and Lee to pass along some of the info that we found and hopefully do some more testing with the DR tires. Maybe a 'controlled' spin to see how the sidewalls fare.
Again, a HUGE thanks to Mike for coming to our pits, the start line and return road several times to check on our safety.

[bvillercr]

What vehicle were you guys running?