Author Topic: Supersonic car - Structure  (Read 6306 times)

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stu

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Supersonic car - Structure
« on: October 28, 2005, 08:18:43 AM »
Hi again,

The project has moved on slightly form last week........we have decided on the configuration of the car, which is to have a hybrid jet+rocket design, with the emphasis being on aerodynamics. So I think the car is going to look very similar to the NEA style car.

I have been looking at space-frames, semi-monocoque and monoqoue design possibilities for the structure of the car.

The rigidity of the design in bending and torsion seems to be a Major factor in this situation. I have noticed that the Thrust SSC has a space frame design but the NEA is basically an aircraft on wheels, which has a monocoque design.

I'm leaning more towards the idea of using a semi-monocoque design, but was wondering if weight will be another major factor to consider?

Obviously if you have a lighter vehicle it will accelerate faster under the same force, however will a lack of weight have a negative effect on the cars stability?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?!

Cheers,

Stu

Offline Malcolm UK

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Space Frame
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2005, 08:32:31 AM »
Stu

The Richard Noble led team had experience of needing to make vehicle changes when many thousands of miles away from their construction base.  To ease the workload with SSC, they used a space frame with removable panels.  NAE is a 'plane, so its construction was that of the original makers.  

As a designer and vehicle operator you will have to decide which route is the best for your project.

SSC has been one of the heaviest cars of all time in land speed record breaking - it went through the sound barrier - guess it was a concept that worked well enough.

Malcolm
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Supersonic car - Structure
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2005, 11:50:12 AM »
Stu,
At the speeds that you are looking at I think that worrying about the weight of the car is not good use of your time. Acceleration is a linear function, i.e. F=MA, horse power to overcome aero drag is based upon the velocity to the power of 3. This gets bigger a lot faster than the power to accelerate the mass very quickly. Do a quick Excel spread sheet of these two equations based upon your target weight and frontal area X Cd and you will see that the aero very quickly passes the acceleration forces.

Make it very aero, heavy and safe.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline PorkPie

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Supersonic car - Structure
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2005, 02:28:31 PM »
Hi Stu,

to your question about frame.

The Thrust SSC, the NAE or the Soa, all three got a frame structure.

The Thrust was designed so heavy (this car is really the heaviest record racer ever built, 10,7 tons (the original calculation was 7 tons) by purpose - the most weight was on the front axle to keep the car down, with a controlled air cushion - like a hovercraft - under the main floor (left/right engine and cockpit) the car was stabelized permant in the same level to the ground - all support by a computer controlled suspension.

Ayers/Bowsher tried to keep the car by weight on the ground, especially in the moment when the car went thru the sound barrier and than, when he slows down, back out off the "sound barrier".

Which sounds in the first moment strange, but to go back from a speed over the mach marker to under mach speed is so critical as to go thru the sound barrier.

The Trust from was so solid, that the car could run high speed without any panels on (limited to the drag which the only frame racer creates), they was there only to cover the frame and to create streamline - by the way, aerodynamicely this car was a brick....a damn fast brick.

This concept with this covering panels was necessary, especially in the rear end. Due to this that the engines outlet was not the end of the body, the extremely heat, create from the engines "exhaust" the panels on the rear end deformed extremely, at last so much that the rivets collapsed and broke.

If this panels would be a part of the stiff structure of the car, the reaction in the panels would create a effect to the whole construction and to the suspension - in other words - twist and bending (talking about some mm).

To the NAE, this car is not a real monocoque - this is a sheetmatel spaceframe design. Instead of tubes the frame is create by sheetmetal profiles - typical plane design from the fifties and sixties - the NSU Baumm was build the same way. Using open profiles as a space frame with screwed/riveted panels on you get a very stiff construction.

But to build a single racer this way is a long and hard work. Without press tools, so as used for the F104, it will need a lot of work to get each spaceframe rip and longitudinal together. A other problems are the joints.

Different to a tube frame, which you can weld together with soft and hard knots (joint points) this open profil frame needs to be spot welded.

Also this frame will be never strong enough to stay stiff by his own. It needs the panels to get the necessary strength. But the result is a very stiff design with a low weight.

By this design it is necessary that the shockwave reaction, especially with a ground bound vehicle like a record racer, had to be controlled only by aerodynamic.

Now to the Spirit of America (96/97 version). This racer used the best of both worlds. It was a very light spaceframe done with round tubes. It was designed with a upper and lower half "tube" frame. This two halfs was screwed together, the jet engine was used as a part (of strength) to stiff this spaceframe. A so tube frame is very easy to build and could be done with standard work shop equipment. Also the joints are very easy to modify - from a soft to a hard knot or back it needs only a cutter and a welder.
Alone (frame + engine) this design was not stiff enough. In this build status it was necessary to have a support under the frame, otherwise the frame bend through (by inches). Only the 1/5 inches thick aluminium (stressed) panels, fixed with hundreds of screws on the spaceframe, done the whole construction stiff and strong enough to run fast. In 96 the 700 mph u-turn on two wheels showed how strong a so design could be.

The result of this design was a very light construction, about 10 % heavier than the F104 way, but with a very easy to build construction.

The SoA weight at last 4 tons with his single engine - against the 10,7 of the twin engine SSC. The weight of the engines are very similar.
This shows how heavy the SSC frame design was.

If you like to go for a tube frame design, don't forget CREMONA. This mathematic frame rule helps a lot to keep the weight of the frame down.

Used CREMONA the right way, you can reach very easy a 30 % stiffer frame by the same weight to a standard frame, or a weight reduction from 30 % by the same stiffness.

Cremona comes from a Italian mathematics, you find this mathematic rule especially in crane design, but it works also by a car frame design.

Hope this helps.

Think fast....always
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline PorkPie

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Supersonic car - Structure
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2005, 02:32:57 PM »
Sorry, there was a writing mistake.......

The Thrust frame was so solid, that the car could run high speed without any panels on (limited to the drag which the only frame racer creates),
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

stu

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Supersonic car - Structure
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2005, 06:42:06 AM »
Thanks, that has helped a lot. I see your point with the monocoque designs being more difficult to produce. I suppose if this car were to run then the design should be simple and practical and it doesn't seem that weight is too much of an issue, it just depends hows you're using it.

Thanks, I'm sure I'll be back with some more stuff later!

Offline JimW

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weight
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 04:33:34 PM »
At one point I did not think weight was that important and heavy was OK.  A discussion with Jack Costella of Nebulous Theorem fame changed my mind.  If course length was unlimited, there would be time available for a long acceleration.  But, course length is limited, which limits accel time, which makes being lighter weight a more important factor.  Being fast in the 12th mile doesn't do any good.  Weight also affects traction (not as important to thrust vehicles).  There is clearly a tradeoff to be made.

Thanks,
Jim W.

Offline PorkPie

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Supersonic car - Structure
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2005, 05:32:16 PM »
Hi Jim,

weight or no weight is not the question - so long you got enough power and enough track length....to stop the car.

The measured mile is in the center of the track, for the Thrust SSC the original course length was 13 miles - 6 miles to accelerate, measured mile - 6 mile to slow down the car and to stop them. When they set the record they run 14 miles, they extend the track on both sides by 1/2 mile.
This was necessary to get enough speed to get an average over the mach number. The idea was to set a record over the mach mark - not only a peak speed over the mach mark.

The heavy weight - 3.5 ton over the original concept and some design mistake maked this extension necessary.

In 1996, when Craig Breedlove drove his famous u-turn, caused by a 15 mph crosswind - over the CB they said 1...5, they understood 1.5 instead of 15 mph - Craig accelerate the SoA in only 3 1/2 miles up to 670 mph, during this acceleration he shut off the afterburner 4 times (I got the print of the computer data in my archive).

With less weight - only around 38 % of the SSC - a drag / cross section combination of 50 % - and 20 % better weight to power ratio - a so acceleration was possible. I say drag / cross section combination - the drag alone was not so much better, but the different in the cross section.
The main body of the SSC was 12 feet wide, the SoA 3 1/2 feet.

Much more important is the slow down. If you have to stop 10.7 ton or 4 ton from a speed above 700 mph is a big different. To stop the SoA on a 6 mile long track could be done much easier than with the SSC.
Bowsher done a fantastic job with his brake design for the SSC. Once the SSC lost his chute by a 700 mph run, it needs Andy only 1 1/2 mile more to stop the car without chute. But the necessary suspension and brake system was one of the reason for the overweight of the SSC....

Less weight......less brake....

Think fast.....always
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Franklin_Ratliff

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Re: Supersonic car - Structure
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2005, 02:18:21 PM »
Quote from: stu
Hi again,

The project has moved on slightly form last week........we have decided on the configuration of the car, which is to have a hybrid jet+rocket design, with the emphasis being on aerodynamics. So I think the car is going to look very similar to the NEA style car.

I have been looking at space-frames, semi-monocoque and monoqoue design possibilities for the structure of the car.

The rigidity of the design in bending and torsion seems to be a Major factor in this situation. I have noticed that the Thrust SSC has a space frame design but the NEA is basically an aircraft on wheels, which has a monocoque design.

I'm leaning more towards the idea of using a semi-monocoque design, but was wondering if weight will be another major factor to consider?

Obviously if you have a lighter vehicle it will accelerate faster under the same force, however will a lack of weight have a negative effect on the cars stability?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?!

Cheers,

Stu


http://www.tomdaniel.com/td_career/td_articles/rocketman_design/rocketman_home.html

Above is a link to the rocket car design developed by Gary Gabelich and Tom Daniel as a successor to The Blue Flame.

Franklin_Ratliff

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Jet Car Designs
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2005, 02:23:27 PM »
http://www.sonicwind.com/franklinRatliffPage.html

In the above link the top version is actually a FOUR engine car with two J-85 or J-60 engines per nacelle (a Rolls-Royce Viper would be the closest British counterpart).

The bottom version is based on drawings done in the summer of 1983 with the goal of creating a shape where there would be no strong shockwave formations underneath the car. Drawing from the Bell rocket backpack, the engines are canted outward to improve directional stability.

Franklin_Ratliff

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WEIGHT
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2005, 02:26:31 PM »
Weight is VERY important for a rocket car.

It is not as important for a jet car.