Engines in tandem?

[1212FBGS]

Hey Jack
Yes I remember your double. You started one motor then put it into gear and let the clutch out to start the other motor. Yes Charlie still has the big red banana. Haven't heard from him in a while I think he is still planning to restore it. Didn't it have a belt drive coupling system system that ran over the top of the motors. coupling loss? I still dont think we are doubling HP I am using conservitive guesses for my bonneville pro software stuff. Do you know of a dyno that we can check my car. Hell i'll be there next week to find out for sure. Jack youve got the most experience with doubles than all of us. I thought the motors in Ricks dragster came out of the liner but sometimes I could be wrong. Have I ever seeen a 16v-92 ?hell I don't even know what that is! Is it somthin old? I still think I should get a crap load of points for that long post.

[1212FBGS]

Ya Hoo I love this points thing! I'ts adicting and i'm catching up with Doland. Give me 10 more baby!

[JackD]

I had 3 race cars running this weekend that made a total of 32 passes over a 2 day event.
One of them broke out by .002 in the 8th and final round after winning his class and then racing the winners from 4 categories for king of the hill.
Those are grandsons that represent the 3rd generation of drivers that started with me in 1962.
With 41 SCTA record trophies, I think that represents some time spent with them also.
The 30 years in SDRC have not been without some time dedicated to the effort with suitable results.
 If I am at an SCTA meet, I am not likely to check in with you.
Try again
Oh and for Kent. If you want to use a wheel dyno put the car on 1 roller of a full sized chassis dyno and spin their ass off. SDRC meets on top of one now.
The hp should always be measured at the point of delivery because that is where you use it.
A 16V92 is the spec for 2 V8 diesels with 92" per jug that are linked together by the ends of the crankshaft like Nolan's setup. A very common package the was even used in the over the road truck from Battle Mountain that ran Bonneville.
And for you points hustlers, they have to be sharp enough to stick , otherwise they fall on the floor and there will be no cigar.

[hawkwind]

so if 2 is double trouble , then this will be ??



some of you older gents may rememner these and Boris ,by the way the triple will be running at the next DLRA speed week , as we prefer to inovate rather than stagnate  
Gary

[JackD]

The busiest sounding bike I ever heard was the triple H-2. Their is even a double engined Whizzer running around. Cranks that were designed to deliver their power from the ends were favored for linking together and has been done with everything you might imagine. The weak spot was the dry chain at crank speed that required a lot of attention.
They were more popular 30 years ago than now , but with singles running faster that the available tires, they are usually a lot of work.
Perhaps the DLRA can lead the way and remove the 2 engine restriction and that might take some of the heat off their desire to try a "Dustbin".
Some kids like John and Kent may have never seen them, but it is too late to invent them. LOL

[desotoman]

Hi Kent,
   Thanks for posting. I hope one day you can get your liner on a dyno to  see just what the difference is. And if you ever do please let me know. Thanks again, Tom Gerardi

[desotoman]

Hi Hawkwind,
    Neat pictures. I bet that triple is a handfull. Best of luck with your project. Thanks for posting, Tom Gerardi

[Seldom Seen Slim]

16V92 engines are/were in the Joint Venture and Carl Heap's Phoenix, to name a couple of well-known vehicles.  General Motors used to label their diesel engines with simple explanatory numbers like that -- the first # was the number of cylinders, the letter declared configuration, the last was cu. in. per cylinder.  Ever wonder what kind of/size engine your 6-71 blower came from?  Straight-six w/ 71 in./cyl.  Ditto a 4-53?  (I think that series was a 4-53).  

See how easy it used to be?  Now -- well, my Chevy trucks have Cat 3126E motors.  Doesn't tell you much except that the motor is "E" -- which stands for "electronic".

[hawkwind]

Perhaps the DLRA can lead the way and remove the 2 engine restriction and that might take some of the heat off their desire to try a "Dustbin".

 
Done  as of today the DLRA will now allow up to 3 motors and more if anyone is crazy enough to try    the "dustbin" is going to take a little more effort    but it will happen  
Gary

[Rex Schimmer]

I have to agree with Jack D, if you connect two 100 hp engines together and measure the output it will be 200 hp, if it is 150 then 50 hps are going into heat some where and I don't see that happening on any of the multi engine cars or bikes. Although after seeing some of the various "coupling" methods there certainly could be some hp going out through some of the jack shafts and chains.

There is a  liner being built that is 4 wheel drive with two engines that will have an engine to drive each set of wheels, not physically connected, except by the wheels on the salt but the engines will be connected electronically through their ECUs to maintain matching rpms. Interesting thinking.

Rex

[JackD]

Chet Herbert's car has AWD and 4 BBC in line.
More power than he has figured out how to deliver.
"The problems are not endless, but certainly ahead of it's time." (ME)

[desotoman]

Hi Rex,
   Thanks for posting. Lets say you have  two 4 cylinder 100 hp motors that are connected together, and they make 200 hp no matter how they are connected(firing as a 4 or 8 cylinder). What happens with the torque? Would you gain more torque from firing the two motors as one?(big 4 cylinder). Maybe the difference is in the torque and not the hp. What do you think? Regards, Tom

[JackD]

The power delivery of the individual supplies doesn't change but is additive. The monkey motion of the delivery is the only loss. The characteristics of the power supply is it's own and makes it's contribution to the package. You can have any mix for example a turbo gasser and a 2 stroke, or a an electric with a turbine.
Remember it is just like weight, only the final number is what counts.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Dare I offer something?  How about considering the time element -- the time between the individual power pulses -- when you're adding the output of multiple sources of power?  Am I right in thinking that when you're measuring Hp or torque you're seeing a result (on the dyno screen or meter) that's averaged over some finite amount of time, like seconds, even though the power pulses are only milliseconds apart.  So what you're seeing on the readout is the added sum of whole bunches of power pulses.  What the clutch, transmission, driveline, & tire is seeing is scads of pulses (real close together).  Averaged power output might total what you need to push you down the track at XXX mph, but instantaneous power is what's snapping driveshafts or breaking teeth in the trans. or twisting jackshafts...or breaking the tires loose.

"Big-bang" vs. "screamer" motorcycle engine timing arrangements experiment with this, right?  Big-bang placed all the power strokes within a small number of degrees of crank revolution - so the tire would get this one massive pulse of power (which might break traction), but then there'd be many, many degrees of no power for the wheel to stop spinning and regain traction -- waiting for the next big bang event.  Isn't this one explanation of why the Ducati twins had so much success against the inline-fours, even when the twin had less hp numbers on a dyno?  That is, the firing sequence was giving the tire time to relax and gain back some traction before the next big-ass pulse came along.

And if the above two rambling paragraphs are in the neighborhood of correct, might the same consideration be given to determining an advantage to carefully choosing what firing sequence multiple engines ought to have -- identical or staggered?  Maybe the measured-on-a-meter hp and torque would be the same -- but mightn't one arrangement show a reduction in damage to the drivetrain/increase in speed down the racetrack?

[desotoman]

Hi Jon,
     Thanks for posting.  I think you are on to something. I remember when I used to go to Ascot, and watch the Nortons, Triumphs, and Harley's battle, someone saying the Harley had an advantage because of their V twin crankshaft relationship. They said the Harley's hooked up better on the dirt tracks because of the 90-270 degree design. Regard, Tom Gerardi